Speaker: 00:00:16

All right, then, I guess we're rolling.

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: 00:00:18

Yeah. So.

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: 00:00:19

Hi, Dori. Hi.

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: 00:00:21

It's good to see you finally in person.

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: 00:00:23

It took us a couple of attempts

to actually meet.

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: 00:00:26

So that's great.

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: 00:00:27

Yeah. Thank you for coming. Yeah.

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: 00:00:29

Okay.

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: 00:00:31

Obviously,

I've kind of, heard your story already.

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: 00:00:34

To some extent, I know.

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: 00:00:35

You know who you are and what you do,

etc., but, for anybody, listening

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: 00:00:38

or watching, how would you, you know,

introduce yourself and your business,

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: 00:00:43

what can you say? to everybody out there.

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: 00:00:45

Yeah. So listening.

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: 00:00:46

So Dori Shabbat

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CEO of Ethical Micro.

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We are a company

that launched at the: 2018

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More than seven years ago.

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And we developed the first autonomous

platform for sales teams.

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We have offices in Israel

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and now offices for the last two years

in, in the UK, in Manchester.

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Great.

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So you started over there and this is your

second sort of area business expansion.

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Yeah I see, I see. Okay.

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Nice one.

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And you know, over those seven years,

you know what's, what's

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what's the progress been like,

you know, do you find

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it was easier to start over there or,

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you know, now that you see the market,

you know what it looks like here.

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If you were to build again, you know, you

would you start here

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or start, you know, the same way you did

seven years ago.

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Would that be the same sort of thing?

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So to answer on that, I mean to,

say a little bit about carmaker.

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So carmaker,

the whole idea of the, of the system,

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was born when,

when I had, and an advertising agency.

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Okay.

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We had almost thousand customers.

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So it's, you know, it's a big agency.

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And, we start to hear

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a lot of customers

saying that the leads we are generating,

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they're not good, they're not qualified,

they don't pick up the phone, etc..

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And there's a person that likes to take

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100% responsibility

about anything they do in my life.

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I went and started to call those leads

and see what happened.

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And I saw a couple of things that,

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caused us to, to, to,

to start co-manager.

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So one was that, people really don't

pick up the phone, you know.

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So one was the first one was that

people really don't pick up the phone.

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And you know, they're busy

and other things that they probably do.

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The second was that they're not

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that available to have a conversation

when you're calling them.

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So they're not that free all of the time.

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And the third thing,

and I'm pretty sure you

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you won't be, that surprised

that sales reps are humans

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and, when human, have to deal

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with that kind of interaction,

they start to have assumptions.

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Leads.

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Of course, if this lead didn't

pick up the phone twice

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or three times,

then it it's not that serious.

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Or if he told me to call him back after

noon, then he didn't pick up the phone.

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Then he not that serious.

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And all of the solutions

we have that back then

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and also today,

CRM with lists of fleets,

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okay, all of the CRM

and you can go to the advanced one

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and the best one in the market

like Salesforce and HubSpot etc..

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There are all have at the end of the day,

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they have little list of tasks

that the sales reps need to do,

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and we understood

that this is the big problem.

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In in the market.

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And that how we came up with

the idea to come up here.

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We decided to create a system

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with a CRM functionality,

phone system and other,

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but to make sure the system

is based on AI.

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And back then, you know, seven years ago,

it it wasn't as we know it

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today, no one knew how to pronounce

the name ChatGPT.

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Yep, yep.

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And, and that's what we did.

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So we had, multiple, AI models,

which we trained on back then.

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It was hundreds of thousands of,

sales interactions.

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Okay.

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And those models, knew

how to, to understand what is going,

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you know, during the sales process

and to prioritize

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and help the sales reps to,

to do much more at the same time.

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Amazing.

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So that's that's was the

that's how we started.

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And, in Israel because it's my, my,

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where I came from,

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it is

it was very easy for me to understand

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and go to the market and try the product

and try to develop it and,

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and and make it what it

what it's become in the last few years.

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So, I wouldn't change it

because, you know, I needed to do that.

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Now, when we have customers,

not not only in Israel,

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we have in Europe and in the UK, it's

the right time to do this move.

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I was actually two years ago.

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Not just now, I see.

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Okay.

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And, when we look at the product itself.

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Obviously you've explained,

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you know, what it does

and how it can help an organization.

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But you know, from how you built it,

that's obviously a

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from what I hear,

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it's a great starting point

because you've analyzed,

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you know what

you've been already dealing with.

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So you knew that space anyway.

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But then how did you go into that analysis

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with the intention of building something.

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Or did it occur to you

like only after you've done your analysis

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and you called these people

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and then you identify, oh,

there might be a problem there?

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Or did you already have like a oh,

we maybe should create something already.

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And did you have that sort of idea

in your mind before.

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I think it's, a little bit

of, of each one of them,

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because at the beginning

we faced the problem, you know,

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we had the, the advertising agency,

we faced the problem.

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We knew that there is a problem

in the market, and we wanted to do.

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So I think it's a bit of everything.

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Because at the beginning

we saw the problem in the market.

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They had the advertising agency

and I decided to to, to go

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and do something after I sold the agency.

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But after that, because it was

a bootstrap, we didn't raise any money.

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Then any, complaint from our customers

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or something that were really hurt.

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And in terms of,

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you know, they told us if you want fix it,

we want to use the system.

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And, so it it involved,

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a lot of, back and forth

with the comments

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we got from the customers and,

and improved the product.

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Amazing. Yeah.

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And, from the initial,

let's say, inception of the idea,

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how long did it take you to

to land on something that was already,

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you know, workable?

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You know, the first, let's say,

draft of the of the app, you know,

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what was the sort of process like,

you know,

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if you can just take us through that,

you know, like origin of the actual thing.

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Yeah.

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So the MVP,

the first version, took us like,

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six months, about six months.

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And we during that time,

we already started to sell the product.

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I had a presentation.

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I got two customers, really small one,

but two customers.

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I did that and,

and tried to sell this product and say,

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hey, you,

you can be the first one who use it.

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And,

it was a great approach back then. Wow.

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Okay. Yeah.

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So you in a way, you created

like a founder kind of situation

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so people could be

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involved from the very start before

the product is even, like, yeah, okay.

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That's amazing. That's amazing.

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And what was the response, by the way?

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Our customers of us, up until today,

they're using this amazing, amazing.

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And what was their response

to the AI element?

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Because that was like brand, brand new.

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It wasn't even like a public knowledge

at that point, was it?

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So yeah.

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People didn't know what it

what does it mean at the, at the beginning

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and the only way, you know, one of the,

the most common, comment

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we heard back then was that

we don't see it.

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I we can feel it. Yeah, we can feel it.

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Help us, but we don't see it.

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How can we see it in the system?

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And this was something that took us

a lot of time to get into a point,

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which we built things inside a system

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that will actually show the AI.

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Okay. It took us much longer time.

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So the visual element of just presenting

that it's actually doing something.

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Yeah. Okay. I see.

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So you took it as a separate element

of the system to show it to the client.

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So they see the value more. Yeah. Okay.

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When when you sell some kind of a product

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to, to your customer,

he wants, you know, one of the most,

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trustworthy,

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sense that we have as a humans

is to see something.

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Because if we see it's exist, if you don't

see exactly, it doesn't exist.

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So this was the most difficult thing

we faced at the beginning.

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Because if you want to sell something

and you say, okay, based on AI,

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and you don't see it, it's

you need to, you know, to, to bypass that.

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I see well, it's a common issue

in the IT and tech space, isn't it?

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You know, you say that you did something,

but the client might not see it,

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you know, oh, we've updated your servers

or whatever. And.

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Yeah. Okay.

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But did you really. Yeah.

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Or SEO, that's another space where,

you know, there's it's been like a wave

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of agencies that would charge you monthly,

but they didn't really do much.

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And nobody really, truly knows

what's supposed to be happening.

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Right.

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So there's been many businesses

literally just scamming people.

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So yeah, the not a good practice.

Honestly.

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But not recommending that.

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Okay.

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And in terms of your let's

call them like North Star features,

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you know,

what is the absolute like core thing

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that makes the most difference

for your clients?

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You know, obviously you've described

the product, you described the process.

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But what is like the main thing,

you know, the AI element,

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which function exactly

is it enhancing for, you know,

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presenting that value to your clients

when you're having that conversation?

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What seems to be clicking

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in the middle of that conversation

the most for your clients?

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So we have what we call it.

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We call it decode revenue.

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Decode

revenue is an engine, inside our system

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that knows how to detect hidden,

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revenue opportunities in a business.

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So in a sense, when you work on the system

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with your sales team or customer service

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team, the system knows how to map

everything that happens

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between them

and each one of them separately.

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And, understand if there are,

hidden potentials, for example,

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if I'm you talked about this in SEO,

so if I'm taking the marketing site

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and I have as a business,

I have multiple landing pages.

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So the system knows, for example,

if that channel, that landing page

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generate leads

that, are missing some information

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because we know that from the government

sections, it will give you, an alert.

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So add that information

in your landing page, for example.

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You other thing, when you, have,

customer service interaction,

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someone came with a complain

and then, as a sales or not sales,

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customer service representative,

I solve this problem now it's.

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And the customer is satisfied.

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Now it's a great time

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to ask for a referral and generate

more leads to the business.

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And so the system can detect that

kind of things and not just alert you,

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but also give you the ability to, it can

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or autonomously, do things for you.

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For example,

if if the rep didn't ask for, a referral,

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then the system can communicate with,

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with the potential with the customer,

via WhatsApp, for example, and say,

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hey, this story we just had,

we just spoke him,

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would you mind to give me a referral,

just for example.

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So it

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it goes through all of the channels,

all of the interactions and conversations

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and understand if there are hidden

potential, opportunities.

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And it helps you to uncover and

and do something with it.

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Amazing, amazing.

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So in a nutshell,

you are transcribing all the conversations

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and it's analyzing the transcripts

and it's building that model

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and the predictions based on what

it picked up from these conversations.

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Is that correct?

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Yeah. It's not just,

the voice conversation.

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It's all of the,

the all of the interactions, everything.

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And, the the, the voice. Okay. Okay.

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: 00:13:37

So it remembers

all from that context. Yeah.

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And then it spits out, yeah.

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: 00:13:43

Oh, wow. And that's amazing. Yeah.

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: 00:13:44

And have you ever noticed, obviously

it's a thing with, with some of the other

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LMS out there that, you know,

there's things like House Nations, etc..

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So have you been sort of able

to avoid that or is that still a risk.

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You know, because it's a typical

for of them that it might happen.

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Okay.

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When you use the typical LMS

you have that kind of problem.

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But we don't use only LMS.

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I see we have our own models

that knows that, that we're trained,

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on our own metrics and knows to,

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to how to eliminate those situations.

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So we have multiple steps that knows

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how to, you know, to eliminate

that's in those cases.

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That's amazing okay.

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So and obviously you're relying on

a very specific set of data on the input.

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So there shouldn't be really like

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: 00:14:32

it's not trying to generate something

out of nothing. Yeah.

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: 00:14:34

It's only working on what it's given okay.

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: 00:14:36

That's that's great.

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: 00:14:37

That's amazing.

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: 00:14:38

And, now on to the more like,

organizational sort of part of it.

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: 00:14:42

Obviously you've built the business

a while ago.

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: 00:14:45

And the landscape is changing,

especially in the AI space.

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: 00:14:49

And anything that's

AI enhanced in the rapid sort of pace.

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: 00:14:52

Would you be able to sort of

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share some, perspectives,

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: 00:14:59

and how you see building the business,

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solo or, with a partner

or maybe a, a number of partners,

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: 00:15:07

obviously, it's it's become very easy

to build something.

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: 00:15:10

And as an MVP,

you know, using all sorts of platforms.

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But then obviously to make that business

work and scale it,

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that's a very different story.

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: 00:15:18

So sometimes going

solo might not be an option.

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: 00:15:21

So is there anything that you can share

from your own experience on that?

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: 00:15:24

You know, have you built it with somebody

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or was it just yourself at the core of

of of the whole thing?

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: 00:15:30

How how did that work?

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So, I just saw a couple of days

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ago, chart in LinkedIn, on LinkedIn.

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: 00:15:38

That says that now you can really build

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whatever you want in, you know, in

just put in a prompt and then get the code

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: 00:15:47

and it will be much more easier,

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: 00:15:50

now to do it nowadays, to do that.

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: 00:15:53

All of them will be stacked

on, on a very specific point

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: 00:15:56

where you need to convert the product

to sell, because you need now to

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: 00:16:03

to know how to work, how to do marketing

and how to sell.

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: 00:16:07

And this is a different,

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: 00:16:10

area of, of building a business.

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: 00:16:13

I think it's the most, not the most,

but one of the

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: 00:16:17

most important thing you need to, to

have when you're building a business.

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At the beginning, I knew that my

my strength is not to build the product.

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: 00:16:27

Okay?

295

: 00:16:28

I have a partner,

which is, our CTO and co-founder,

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: 00:16:32

and, and he built the product.

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: 00:16:36

He did it.

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: 00:16:37

He doing it very well. I'm here today.

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: 00:16:40

And my strength

was the marketing and sales.

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: 00:16:44

So this is a great combination.

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: 00:16:46

If you have someone that, you have,

you know, you want to be,

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you build a product

and you're good at building products

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: 00:16:54

and the partner is also good

in building products.

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: 00:16:57

I don't think it's a good, match.

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: 00:17:00

Okay. Because I can feel it now. Oleg.

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: 00:17:03

Which is my partner.

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: 00:17:05

He we don't, get involved.

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: 00:17:09

In the other

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: 00:17:10

responsibilities of his responsibilities

is the technology and the product.

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: 00:17:14

And my responsibility is to make sure

we generate income from that.

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: 00:17:19

And it works perfectly.

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: 00:17:21

Sounds good.

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: 00:17:22

So you don't get in his way,

and he doesn't get in your way,

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: 00:17:24

and you just do your own thing,

and and that's why it works.

315

: 00:17:27

I know I'm always saying that,

I have the the longest,

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: 00:17:30

relationship I had with anyone in

my life is with my partner.

317

: 00:17:34

So we have the relationship for over,

12 years now. Wow.

318

: 00:17:38

And and in any in the business, it works

really, really well because of that.

319

: 00:17:43

And at what point you decided that, okay,

this is a good person

320

: 00:17:47

to start something with you?

321

: 00:17:49

How did you recognize that?

322

: 00:17:50

Or is it something that you identified

on the personal level, or you just both

323

: 00:17:55

had the desire to build something

and you just said, oh,

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: 00:17:58

maybe let's try it together.

325

: 00:17:59

In the age

we are at now, where you have lots of

326

: 00:18:02

AI and lots of, LMS, and other AIS,

327

: 00:18:08

it's really easy to forget that at the

at the end of the day,

328

: 00:18:12

we're humans, and humans need to get,

329

: 00:18:15

get along with each other.

330

: 00:18:18

And and you need to make sure I did it.

331

: 00:18:23

I had to understand

that we can work together

332

: 00:18:27

for a long period of time, and,

we will count on each other.

333

: 00:18:32

And this was the most important thing

I saw before we started the business.

334

: 00:18:37

I see, I see, that's amazing.

335

: 00:18:40

Well, it's very easy in this day of age

to forget that we are humans.

336

: 00:18:45

Yeah, yeah, even, like sales course

and anything like

337

: 00:18:49

that, you know, all these kind of elements

and interactions,

338

: 00:18:52

you almost start to sound robotic.

339

: 00:18:56

Just because everything starts

to sound a bit like that.

340

: 00:18:59

Because everybody's like using ChatGPT

for generating emails or whatever,

341

: 00:19:04

just summaries of, of of meetings,

whatever it happens to be.

342

: 00:19:07

Right. And, and it's a good thing.

It's not a bad thing.

343

: 00:19:10

But we need to remember about

if at the end of the day, of course.

344

: 00:19:13

But that's the thing that makes us better

because you're enhancing that,

345

: 00:19:17

let's say logical part where, you know,

okay, let's summarize this meeting.

346

: 00:19:22

So that's done for you,

347

: 00:19:24

but then you can focus

on that human side of it and just showed

348

: 00:19:27

whether it's the emotion, the care,

349

: 00:19:29

you know,

whatever you're trying to achieve,

350

: 00:19:31

whether that person that you're talking

to, you can show them the emotions.

351

: 00:19:34

So that's that's that's amazing.

352

: 00:19:36

It just takes that weight from you.

353

: 00:19:38

You don't have to remember as much.

354

: 00:19:40

So you're head is less cluttered

with just like, useless information

355

: 00:19:44

that you can forget tomorrow

because it doesn't matter.

356

: 00:19:47

It was just important for today.

357

: 00:19:48

And you can be focused

on the real important thing.

358

: 00:19:51

Exactly.

359

: 00:19:52

You you don't have to do like,

before that.

360

: 00:19:56

So is this something that you've

identified that made the most difference?

361

: 00:19:59

Obviously,

362

: 00:20:00

you being involved in the marketing

and just putting the product out

363

: 00:20:03

there, is that really

what made the most difference?

364

: 00:20:06

Like,

you know, you just approaching people

365

: 00:20:08

from that like human perspective and just,

you know, like being okay, you know,

366

: 00:20:11

we're just trying to solve your problem,

etc., etc..

367

: 00:20:14

Is that something that, you know, back

then, back then was there.

368

: 00:20:18

Yeah, it was the

it make the different things.

369

: 00:20:21

And we had a pretty good product

at the beginning.

370

: 00:20:25

It wasn't a great product and it was

we have

371

: 00:20:29

multiple, generations since then,

372

: 00:20:32

but at the beginning it

it solved a real specific problem.

373

: 00:20:37

And that was the approach back

then that you need to solve

374

: 00:20:40

a really, really small

and specific problem with your product.

375

: 00:20:44

I think it's different case these days.

376

: 00:20:47

And, yeah.

377

: 00:20:49

And, and it worked perfectly

because the product was quite good

378

: 00:20:53

and you needed to

and we could market and sell it.

379

: 00:20:57

And that's, you know, the,

the holy grail of, businesses.

380

: 00:21:01

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay.

381

: 00:21:03

And with regards to the relationship

with, with your partner,

382

: 00:21:07

you know, and obviously, you know, you've

you've described how you split

383

: 00:21:10

into separate ways, like, you know,

okay, he's sorting this element out.

384

: 00:21:14

I'm, I'm working on this.

385

: 00:21:15

Would you be able

to, to share anything on like,

386

: 00:21:19

at what point you would start growing

that team in terms of having people

387

: 00:21:23

under your umbrella versus, oh, just,

you know, we're going to

388

: 00:21:27

let's say soupcon,

you know, some of the coding

389

: 00:21:30

or maybe, you know, outsource

some of the devs, etc., etc..

390

: 00:21:33

Or was it your preference that you started

building everything under your own team,

391

: 00:21:38

or was it just external people here and

there at the start just to make it work?

392

: 00:21:42

So, I think this was

the most difficult thing in our business,

393

: 00:21:48

because we built the business,

394

: 00:21:51

which is, bootstrap.

395

: 00:21:54

We did the whole thing at the beginning.

396

: 00:21:56

So all did the development.

397

: 00:21:58

I did, the marketing and sales

and also I did I was the customer service,

398

: 00:22:03

the customer service support,

customer success, what we call today.

399

: 00:22:07

And we start

400

: 00:22:10

we we've created a standardization,

in the business.

401

: 00:22:15

And when we tried, we understood

we can't get more clients.

402

: 00:22:19

We can't get to, you know, to the goals

we want to to go in order to grow.

403

: 00:22:25

We understood we need more people.

404

: 00:22:27

And we had couple of tries

at the beginning.

405

: 00:22:32

It wasn't that good.

406

: 00:22:33

Because when you're used to give,

407

: 00:22:36

some level of service to a customer

408

: 00:22:40

and then someone else

that he's in, he's an employee.

409

: 00:22:43

At the end of the day, it's

not the owner of the business.

410

: 00:22:46

Then he's trying to give a service,

411

: 00:22:50

and the client feels it's

not the level of service you gave him.

412

: 00:22:53

And you start to see that

that as a problem.

413

: 00:22:56

Yeah.

414

: 00:22:57

And it took us, I believe,

more than a year to get into a point

415

: 00:23:01

where we understand, okay,

we need to, to to put everything on paper,

416

: 00:23:05

every procedure, every,

thing that we want to measure and do.

417

: 00:23:10

And only then we were able

418

: 00:23:14

to have more people on board,

and now we have much more.

419

: 00:23:17

But, back then,

it was a breakthrough in our business.

420

: 00:23:21

I see, I see, so

you relied on the processes and operation

421

: 00:23:25

and the matrics you've measure,

I see, I see okay, okay.

422

: 00:23:30

Do you still get the feeling like,

oh, if you want to do something,

423

: 00:23:33

you've got to do it yourself.

424

: 00:23:35

Obviously it happens.

425

: 00:23:36

And I want to get my hands dirty and

and do things.

426

: 00:23:41

But I understand today.

427

: 00:23:44

I understand that

if you want to grow, really grow.

428

: 00:23:48

We need to to

to have good people on board.

429

: 00:23:52

And I think that the, the switch I had in

my mind

430

: 00:23:56

is when I got really quality people.

431

: 00:23:59

And that's one of the hardest thing

to do to recruit

432

: 00:24:02

really quality, high quality people.

433

: 00:24:06

But when we got them,

434

: 00:24:08

I saw that they can do different

in a different way.

435

: 00:24:12

They can do things

436

: 00:24:13

that are much better than I would do

if you guys have the right people.

437

: 00:24:17

Okay.

438

: 00:24:18

And this was the point

where we really grow

439

: 00:24:22

because we have more people.

440

: 00:24:24

We can do it in a much smarter way.

441

: 00:24:26

And we we, you know, the results.

442

: 00:24:29

We see them every day.

443

: 00:24:32

I see, I see, so obviously

nobody is going to be as invested

444

: 00:24:36

in that business and making it work

as you and your co-founder.

445

: 00:24:40

Right.

446

: 00:24:40

But,

did you notice because what you know,

447

: 00:24:45

I see specifically being involved

in the customer,

448

: 00:24:48

success, processes, it's

449

: 00:24:52

you kind of as a person do get invested

because you're trying to help somebody,

450

: 00:24:56

especially if you if it's somebody

that you've been working with as a client

451

: 00:24:59

for a longer period of time

and you want to help them.

452

: 00:25:03

But do you see that

your teams are also struggling with,

453

: 00:25:07

you know, perhaps, you know,

handing over the tasks between themselves

454

: 00:25:10

and just, you know, collaborating on that

sort of level or, you know, have you

455

: 00:25:15

removed that problem by having a really

like slick processes in the first place?

456

: 00:25:19

So we have slick processes.

457

: 00:25:21

But but because that's the other side

458

: 00:25:24

of us being humans, because we are humans,

we have an interaction.

459

: 00:25:29

We can have multiple interactions

with, our customers.

460

: 00:25:32

Some of them will be good interactions and

some of them won't be good interactions

461

: 00:25:37

because they need to adopt new systems

and process.

462

: 00:25:41

The customers need to adopt a new system

you processes and others.

463

: 00:25:45

And you need to,

464

: 00:25:49

to, to make sure you manage you

as a manager, not me.

465

: 00:25:53

I have now have, a team leader

and in each, department.

466

: 00:25:58

So, we need to make sure they have

467

: 00:26:01

the right metrics to measure

and make sure they are helping.

468

: 00:26:05

The people to to do better job

in terms of the communication,

469

: 00:26:10

the way we, they, we approach situations

with, customers, etc..

470

: 00:26:16

That's very good, very good.

471

: 00:26:17

Also from, experience at my end,

472

: 00:26:21

being from specific

area of the globe introduces

473

: 00:26:26

some really tricky situations, like,

you know, you're like,

474

: 00:26:30

sap could be very different

to your colleagues ASAP, right?

475

: 00:26:34

We all have a very different sort

of idea of time.

476

: 00:26:37

And,

477

: 00:26:38

the sense of urgency is very different,

you know, especially between cultures.

478

: 00:26:42

Right.

479

: 00:26:43

Have you struggled with, something

like that, you know, starting, the,

480

: 00:26:47

the new sort of market and just, you know,

getting into the, the UK sort of area,

481

: 00:26:51

you know, how did you sort of,

did you notice anything like that?

482

: 00:26:54

Yeah.

483

: 00:26:54

I think the entrance to the UK was,

484

: 00:26:57

you know, a really great example for,

for what you're saying.

485

: 00:27:01

Our team is

that we had started with an Israeli team.

486

: 00:27:06

You know, it's a different culture.

487

: 00:27:08

The way we communicate is different

in Israel than the you in the UK.

488

: 00:27:14

And it took us not not long time

489

: 00:27:18

because we have processes to, to measure

the feedbacks from the customer.

490

: 00:27:22

So we understood what what is wrong

and what is right.

491

: 00:27:24

And then we would,

we would able to to do that adjustments.

492

: 00:27:29

But it took us a couple of months.

493

: 00:27:31

To understand which adjustments

494

: 00:27:34

we need to do to the process

and to understand,

495

: 00:27:37

what the customer really need

and really wants to say,

496

: 00:27:42

and adopt it into the process.

497

: 00:27:46

Yeah.

498

: 00:27:47

It took some time,

and it might be a silly question,

499

: 00:27:50

but just because,

everything happens in English here,

500

: 00:27:54

was it easier for your actual solution

to to perform better, or was

501

: 00:27:59

was there any difference between the two

502

: 00:28:00

because it was a different language

503

: 00:28:02

that it was operating on,

or it didn't really matter

504

: 00:28:04

because it was already sort of,

you know, ready for it.

505

: 00:28:08

Yeah.

506

: 00:28:08

So, and we, we, although we started

the business in Israel,

507

: 00:28:14

we developed the whole product, to,

508

: 00:28:17

to be for the UK and the English market.

509

: 00:28:21

So it's, it had started,

you know, at the beginning

510

: 00:28:26

we had the, the system

in English and in Israel it's Hebrew.

511

: 00:28:30

So users that don't know much English

512

: 00:28:35

needed to work with Hebrew system

with, with an English system.

513

: 00:28:40

And it took us like,

a year and a half to,

514

: 00:28:43

to have a Hebrew version

for the Israeli market.

515

: 00:28:47

So, yeah, I see as a business owner,

516

: 00:28:51

obviously you follow certain metrics

to see what's happening in your business.

517

: 00:28:55

So how did you approach, measuring

518

: 00:28:59

for that success and, you know, monitoring

519

: 00:29:02

what people think about your product,

you know, are they happy with it, etc..

520

: 00:29:06

You know, how did you start with that?

521

: 00:29:09

You mentioned that you did a little bit

of that yourself at the very start.

522

: 00:29:12

But do you have a dedicated, you know, a

set of people who measure the customer

523

: 00:29:16

success, perhaps, or, you know, interact

with your clients that way,

524

: 00:29:19

or is it embedded in another process

as part of, of something else?

525

: 00:29:23

So we have both.

526

: 00:29:24

We have the automated process

that measure,

527

: 00:29:29

interactions with the system.

528

: 00:29:31

And we have also, the people

that has the quality, measurement.

529

: 00:29:37

And also, on every interaction

we have, like the customer success,

530

: 00:29:42

have some certain situation

or conversation with the customer,

531

: 00:29:47

then he knows

if he needs to raise something,

532

: 00:29:51

you know, to the manager,

in order to understand

533

: 00:29:55

that we have a pattern here,

and then we need to handle it.

534

: 00:29:58

I see, and,

do you also, when you mentioned patterns,

535

: 00:30:03

let's say, you know,

your client is using this software,

536

: 00:30:06

that software and something else

and then your product.

537

: 00:30:09

So you see like a, a landscape of

the products that they're using right now.

538

: 00:30:14

So if you noticed a problem

with that specific client

539

: 00:30:17

and you've got, let's say, ten others

with the same set of tools in place,

540

: 00:30:21

is this something that you also try

to recognize as a pattern?

541

: 00:30:24

So you preemptively try to address

that with the other ones?

542

: 00:30:28

Is this something that you're

sort of looking into as well or.

543

: 00:30:32

Yeah, of course we do that.

544

: 00:30:34

For example, we had some, some, Windows

545

: 00:30:39

Update that causes, the web RTC.

546

: 00:30:43

I don't know if it's

a too complicated thing to say here.

547

: 00:30:47

They changed something

that we're about to see,

548

: 00:30:51

which means that the microphone

with different, on the system.

549

: 00:30:56

So we saw that

and it started on a few customers,

550

: 00:30:59

and then we saw, okay,

they have some technical problems.

551

: 00:31:02

And then we understood

we need to do some adjustments because of

552

: 00:31:07

it will be on all of our customers.

553

: 00:31:09

Yeah. We should have stayed

on windows XP. That hardly.

554

: 00:31:15

No, I'm pretty sure

all of Hollywood would agree with you.

555

: 00:31:18

It never broke.

556

: 00:31:19

Yeah, and there were no unexpected

updates every day.

557

: 00:31:22

There were, the blue screens and.

558

: 00:31:25

Oh, yeah.

559

: 00:31:26

Yeah, yeah, we tend to forget.

560

: 00:31:28

Oh, I enjoyed these times.

561

: 00:31:30

You know, at that point, I was building

PCs for my friends and for myself.

562

: 00:31:34

So I was just like,

you know, enjoying it really.

563

: 00:31:38

Okay.

564

: 00:31:39

One question that I think, might

be really relevant to the guys out there,

565

: 00:31:44

especially for somebody who's trying

to build a product of their own.

566

: 00:31:49

What is the really important metric

567

: 00:31:53

that you would look for

when you're creating something new, as in,

568

: 00:31:57

how do you even know what you're

looking for in terms of the data?

569

: 00:32:01

What is going to give you a good answer

whether, okay, we're succeeding here

570

: 00:32:05

and maybe we are,

you know, falling short somewhere else,

571

: 00:32:08

how would you did it

take you a long time to identify

572

: 00:32:11

that that would be the first part

of the question and then, you know,

573

: 00:32:14

how did you actually,

you know, identify that thing?

574

: 00:32:18

I think people are distracted many

times, but by many, metrics.

575

: 00:32:26

When I started

576

: 00:32:27

and I would suggest and wanted to do that,

the only,

577

: 00:32:31

the only thing you need to

measure is if you can sell the product.

578

: 00:32:36

Okay.

579

: 00:32:36

So you, you want to have the right product

at the beginning.

580

: 00:32:40

You want to have the right product

even after 50 customers.

581

: 00:32:46

You need to start and sell that,

because if you did that and customer

582

: 00:32:50

bot and pay, you pay for for the product,

then you're on something.

583

: 00:32:56

After that you will have problems

where customers will churn out or say,

584

: 00:33:01

okay, we can't use it

because that and that and that.

585

: 00:33:04

And this is a good thing

because if you can learn

586

: 00:33:08

from that and improve your product,

then you're on the right path,

587

: 00:33:12

you know, to

to create a really great, product.

588

: 00:33:16

I see, I see.

589

: 00:33:17

So your suggestion would be to start

worrying about all these like KPIs,

590

: 00:33:21

like NPS scores and stuff

like this, only later

591

: 00:33:24

when the product is already really,

like widely used.

592

: 00:33:27

Yeah.

593

: 00:33:27

When you grow then, then it's

something that you need to take care of.

594

: 00:33:31

I was mentioning before that that,

595

: 00:33:35

before we had, the MVP,

I sold the product

596

: 00:33:40

with the presentation to customers.

597

: 00:33:43

So I would suggest doing that.

598

: 00:33:45

Exactly. Okay.

599

: 00:33:46

And even though today we are, even today

we are doing that

600

: 00:33:51

because we have an idea

for some extension to the system.

601

: 00:33:55

And we go to some of our customers,

which are, customers.

602

: 00:33:59

We have a great relationship with them.

603

: 00:34:02

And say, this is how it will look.

604

: 00:34:05

And this is what it would do.

605

: 00:34:06

Would you pay for that?

606

: 00:34:08

They said, yes,

we're going to develop that.

607

: 00:34:10

If they say no, we won't develop that,

that, extension.

608

: 00:34:14

I see okay.

609

: 00:34:16

That, that that gives I hope everybody,

you know,

610

: 00:34:18

a really good understanding of that

because it makes total sense to me.

611

: 00:34:22

And, Something both a bit simple,

but then hard to pull off.

612

: 00:34:27

Scalability. Yeah, right.

613

: 00:34:29

How do you make sure that

when you're building from the start,

614

: 00:34:33

it can be something that can grow

fairly easily?

615

: 00:34:36

Is it that, you focus

616

: 00:34:39

on the resources that it needs,

whether it's the server space, etc.?

617

: 00:34:43

I'm not trying to to get too technical

here, but just, you know, as a concept,

618

: 00:34:48

do you decide at the very start or,

619

: 00:34:50

you know, just building for something else

first?

620

: 00:34:53

You know, let's let's just sell it

and focus on that.

621

: 00:34:55

And we're going to worry

about scalability later.

622

: 00:34:57

And we can just fix things later.

623

: 00:34:59

Or do you plan for that or did you

specifically plan for that upfront?

624

: 00:35:05

These days you have much more, ways to

to plan much better.

625

: 00:35:11

Back

then we didn't have that knowledge like

626

: 00:35:15

go to chat

GPT and ask how to do some something.

627

: 00:35:19

And I think it doesn't really matter

because

628

: 00:35:22

you don't know how to expect everything.

629

: 00:35:25

I remember one day, we sold the

the system to, really big.

630

: 00:35:31

Back then, it was a really big customer.

631

: 00:35:33

They had over 100, users in the system,

632

: 00:35:38

and, it was an election day.

633

: 00:35:40

They bought it to, to,

634

: 00:35:43

to do the, the calls for the election day.

635

: 00:35:47

And, I remember,

636

: 00:35:50

they started to work with the system

and the system crashed.

637

: 00:35:54

it was like almost seven years ago.

638

: 00:35:57

It was really at the beginning

of the system.

639

: 00:36:00

And then we understood we need to pay

640

: 00:36:03

a really close attention to, to that area.

641

: 00:36:07

And we did that.

642

: 00:36:09

And obviously today we can, serve,

tens of thousands of users.

643

: 00:36:14

But back then it was, you know, it's

it was the, the ringing bell for,

644

: 00:36:19

for us, in order to, you know,

to pay close attention to, to that area.

645

: 00:36:24

And we did that, but we couldn't do that.

646

: 00:36:29

I believe we couldn't do that

and know everything in advance.

647

: 00:36:32

It's something that you

you I'm not suggesting that you need

648

: 00:36:35

to to give users to use the system

and then it will crash.

649

: 00:36:39

But you have to know that you don't know

650

: 00:36:42

everything, to understand

that you don't know everything.

651

: 00:36:45

And you will, understand thing on the go.

652

: 00:36:49

I see, I see okay.

653

: 00:36:51

That gives me a really good idea

how that could look like

654

: 00:36:56

And last one on the the scalability,

655

: 00:37:00

sort of factor is

how would you define it.

656

: 00:37:03

Right.

657

: 00:37:03

Is it just

the number of users that you can serve,

658

: 00:37:06

or is it more about the reach

because there's there's that duality.

659

: 00:37:09

You can look at it from the perspective

of, oh, it is a product that could serve

660

: 00:37:13

everybody in that space or is it,

you know, how you know, easy.

661

: 00:37:19

Can we grow it along

with the number of users that's going up?

662

: 00:37:23

You know, which you know, how

how do you sort of just for, for the guys,

663

: 00:37:27

you know, who might be building

their thing, you know, how they could

664

: 00:37:30

how they should really look at this from

that experience that you've already got?

665

: 00:37:35

I think it's both.

666

: 00:37:36

But there is a third thing

that you need to pay close attention

667

: 00:37:41

is, if you would grow in the development

team,

668

: 00:37:46

you need to have,

669

: 00:37:49

structure in place, which will enable you

670

: 00:37:52

to work with teams, for example,

like working with UPS.

671

: 00:37:56

You know, the system will contain

different ups, applications.

672

: 00:38:02

Which a team can take,

673

: 00:38:05

care of one application

without breaking the other's basic.

674

: 00:38:09

So you need to

675

: 00:38:12

if you want to think

about everything in advance.

676

: 00:38:14

And I think it's not the right, the right

approach because you have certain limited

677

: 00:38:20

amount of time and,

and you need to, to invest that,

678

: 00:38:25

in, in making sure

that you can sell the product

679

: 00:38:29

and get revenue,

you know, to start to get generate

680

: 00:38:32

income and then, and

then you can take care of everything else.

681

: 00:38:36

But when you take care of everything else,

you need to pay attention to them.

682

: 00:38:42

Working with teams

683

: 00:38:43

in the development,

able to serve much more customers.

684

: 00:38:47

And yeah, and you should do that.

685

: 00:38:49

But I think it's the second phase

and not the first one I see, I see, okay.

686

: 00:38:54

Now a little bit on the, the growth as a,

as a person alongside the business.

687

: 00:38:59

I guess that you've gone

through a few changes

688

: 00:39:03

from the moment that you started

the business.

689

: 00:39:05

You did mention that you had

a different business before, right?

690

: 00:39:08

So you were already sort of the used to

to running something of your own.

691

: 00:39:12

Yeah.

692

: 00:39:13

But being,

head of a successful tech company,

693

: 00:39:18

how does that impact you

694

: 00:39:19

as a, on that personal level,

on that sort of personal growth level?

695

: 00:39:23

What sort of skillset did you see that

you lacking that you had to

696

: 00:39:27

develop on the go to, to keep up with,

with the growing business?

697

: 00:39:31

Can you just take us through that story

a little bit?

698

: 00:39:34

I think it didn't change much.

699

: 00:39:36

Okay.

700

: 00:39:36

In the sense of, what I'm doing to

to develop myself as a person.

701

: 00:39:41

I listen to books,

I read books, each day.

702

: 00:39:45

Okay. It happens each day.

703

: 00:39:47

And,

704

: 00:39:50

I'm trying to find areas

which I'm not that confident

705

: 00:39:53

and I'm not feeling that,

that I'm succeeding in these areas.

706

: 00:39:57

And I'm trying to be focus and resolve

that and try to learn more.

707

: 00:40:03

For example,

when I, when I started coming here,

708

: 00:40:08

I was really good at marketing

709

: 00:40:13

and not in sales,

so I went and learned everything I can

710

: 00:40:17

then, to be a much more,

711

: 00:40:20

successful salesperson.

712

: 00:40:24

And I did that.

713

: 00:40:25

And after that,

it was the customer success.

714

: 00:40:28

But the essence of what I'm doing

every day, like I'm writing my goals and

715

: 00:40:33

my tasks

and to measure how much, of my task,

716

: 00:40:37

and, I'm able to, to finish,

717

: 00:40:41

it's stayed the same.

718

: 00:40:44

See, but but nowadays

when you have much more employees and,

719

: 00:40:50

you know, you look at the word different,

didn't you look couple of years ago,

720

: 00:40:56

then you have other concerns, like,

I want that

721

: 00:40:58

my employees will feel really, really good

when they're working with us.

722

: 00:41:03

And another thing

we want to give back to the community.

723

: 00:41:07

So we do a lot of things

to give back to the community.

724

: 00:41:10

We help.

725

: 00:41:11

We support, like we have,

Facebook group of sales reps.

726

: 00:41:16

We sponsor that Facebook group.

727

: 00:41:19

Okay.

728

: 00:41:20

We do a lot of activities

in order to help, others,

729

: 00:41:24

to become successful,

successful in business and sales.

730

: 00:41:29

So, yeah.

731

: 00:41:30

So this is something that,

helps us and gives

732

: 00:41:33

fuel, you know, these idea much more.

733

: 00:41:36

So it gives you that sense of achievement

as well.

734

: 00:41:39

And, and like reward as well.

735

: 00:41:41

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

736

: 00:41:42

So you actively get involved

in that community element as well.

737

: 00:41:46

Yeah. Okay. Yes.

738

: 00:41:47

That's a nice, any ideas here.

739

: 00:41:50

So I see be happy to hear.

740

: 00:41:52

And in terms of,

741

: 00:41:54

you know, how you prefer to work,

you know, to make your life easier.

742

: 00:41:58

Did you find yourself

just sort of forcing yourself

743

: 00:42:02

out of specific tasks so you just,

you know, train yourself to just,

744

: 00:42:07

you know, move away from that

and just let the team deal with that.

745

: 00:42:11

Or is it like you still want to have

that close visibility of that,

746

: 00:42:16

but then it might be, you know,

impacting your, you know, capacity,

747

: 00:42:20

obviously the mental space, etc..

748

: 00:42:22

How how did you sort of, work with that?

749

: 00:42:24

So we are, we promoted, one of our team

750

: 00:42:29

members, to be a crow.

751

: 00:42:32

So he has a really

big, a role at the moment.

752

: 00:42:38

And for me to, to put my

753

: 00:42:40

hands off

and give him the ability to manage the,

754

: 00:42:44

the team and it was a really difficult,

situation, because,

755

: 00:42:50

I'm used to, you know, to feel the company

I need to feel.

756

: 00:42:55

Yeah.

757

: 00:42:55

So I know what will be the revenue

and know

758

: 00:42:58

to look at the, risks in terms of churn.

759

: 00:43:03

I know how to understand that

this situation,

760

: 00:43:06

requires much more involvement.

761

: 00:43:09

And now I need to give others to do that.

762

: 00:43:13

So. Yeah, it's really difficult.

763

: 00:43:16

But I'm seeing the,

you know, the positive side and it works.

764

: 00:43:20

It works really well.

765

: 00:43:22

And that's the main thing, isn't it?

766

: 00:43:23

If you are seeing the results of it,

then why, why,

767

: 00:43:26

why should I do still how to do that?

768

: 00:43:28

I see, because it's

your kind of child, isn't it?

769

: 00:43:31

Yeah. You've built it.

770

: 00:43:32

You've started it. So it's.

771

: 00:43:33

I'm finding myself stopping me.

772

: 00:43:36

Asking questions.

773

: 00:43:38

I in in some situation.

774

: 00:43:40

Because I don't need to do that.

775

: 00:43:41

He knows how to handle that.

776

: 00:43:44

I've got that type of personality as well,

so I.

777

: 00:43:47

Yeah, I totally understand that.

778

: 00:43:50

Okay.

779

: 00:43:51

And, when we look at the,

the overall structure.

780

: 00:43:55

Right.

781

: 00:43:55

Are you, structure of work?

782

: 00:43:59

Sorry, not not the company.

783

: 00:44:01

Are you the to do list kind of person

784

: 00:44:04

or maybe time blocking any sort of,

you know, tips you can recommend?

785

: 00:44:07

You know, for anybody

who wants to get the most out of their day

786

: 00:44:11

because obviously the time is critical,

especially when we're trying to build

787

: 00:44:14

something new.

788

: 00:44:15

We have to be really careful what we do

and don't spend the time on.

789

: 00:44:19

So what did you see worked best for you

from from your side.

790

: 00:44:24

Close the electric devices.

791

: 00:44:26

Have a you know a notepad and write

792

: 00:44:29

my, my the big things

I want to achieve this week, this month.

793

: 00:44:33

Okay.

794

: 00:44:34

And then I would of them

create my, my to do list.

795

: 00:44:39

Okay. And I'm working.

796

: 00:44:40

You know I'm writing with my hand

not on the computer.

797

: 00:44:44

Because

then you have a lot of distractions.

798

: 00:44:48

When you open your email, you open your

what's up, your notifications.

799

: 00:44:52

I don't have any notifications

on my phone.

800

: 00:44:54

I shut down all of them.

801

: 00:44:56

Because then you will be pulled out

802

: 00:45:00

from what you're planning to do

is to happen.

803

: 00:45:04

But but I'm trying to,

you know, to make it happen.

804

: 00:45:07

Less lazy.

805

: 00:45:09

Lazy.

806

: 00:45:10

I'm a big fan of handwriting as well.

Yeah.

807

: 00:45:12

If it's something important,

it's always on paper.

808

: 00:45:15

Yeah.

809

: 00:45:16

You know, the day to day notes.

810

: 00:45:17

Yeah, it can be on the phone,

but anything else?

811

: 00:45:19

Like really

something that matters. It has.

812

: 00:45:22

It has to be on the piece of paper.

813

: 00:45:25

Okay.

814

: 00:45:25

And maybe, you know, the last big

one on the, you know, the initial journey

815

: 00:45:30

of creation of a product,

you know, and something that touched on,

816

: 00:45:34

on your, let's say, personality profile,

how do you recognize,

817

: 00:45:38

that it is in line with,

you know, how you function.

818

: 00:45:43

Not every product is for for somebody.

819

: 00:45:45

You might be inclined

towards the technical space.

820

: 00:45:48

You might be inclined

towards some sort of a more,

821

: 00:45:51

let's say, you know, human,

you know, based interactions, etc.

822

: 00:45:54

so, you know, view being good at something

823

: 00:45:58

and having specific traits,

824

: 00:46:01

how do you recognize that

this is where you can actually function?

825

: 00:46:05

You know, how how can you contribute

to your business the best?

826

: 00:46:08

Because that's

that's that self realization that I still,

827

: 00:46:12

you know, struggle a little bit with.

828

: 00:46:14

So is there something you can share

on that front?

829

: 00:46:17

I think it's a matter only of results.

830

: 00:46:19

So if you do something

and the impact is so big,

831

: 00:46:24

then keep doing it,

until you have enough budget

832

: 00:46:28

to give someone to do

the exact same thing.

833

: 00:46:32

Otherwise

you should pay someone to do to do it.

834

: 00:46:37

And, and I know it's quite,

difficult to hear that.

835

: 00:46:40

Because when we were at a very low budget,

836

: 00:46:44

we don't we didn't have any budget

to pay some designer

837

: 00:46:50

and I, I did the designing,

and I'm not that good at design,

838

: 00:46:54

but when I understood that,

if I will design something

839

: 00:46:59

and it won't be that good design

even though we don't have the budget,

840

: 00:47:03

the the impact will be huge because

we will lose credibility and others.

841

: 00:47:11

So I think the, the,

842

: 00:47:12

formula is,

making sure that if you do something

843

: 00:47:16

you're really, really good at

and the impact is really great.

844

: 00:47:21

And if not, you should pay

someone to do that,

845

: 00:47:24

whether it's an employee or, freelancer.

846

: 00:47:27

So you're cutting that risk of this going

terribly bad?

847

: 00:47:31

Yeah.

848

: 00:47:31

In near future, I see, I see, okay.

849

: 00:47:35

got a few questions here,

this and that, scenario.

850

: 00:47:39

So which one would you prefer?

851

: 00:47:41

So I've got a few things listed here.

852

: 00:47:43

Okay.

853

: 00:47:43

you were growing a new business? Right.

854

: 00:47:46

Which one would you prioritize?

855

: 00:47:49

A rapid growth or, like, slow, slow pace?

856

: 00:47:54

And that's the scalability element.

857

: 00:47:56

You want to dominate the market first

or is it better to take it slow

858

: 00:48:01

and just make sure that it's a sustainable

growth from the sustainable growth?

859

: 00:48:05

Okay. Okay.

860

: 00:48:06

So is it better that the current situation

861

: 00:48:09

on the market

or is it just your personal preference?

862

: 00:48:12

No, I think it's the situation.

863

: 00:48:14

But you need to keep the word growth.

864

: 00:48:17

You know, it's the most important thing

because if you do a rapid thing

865

: 00:48:21

and you don't grow,

you don't do a growth, that much.

866

: 00:48:26

Then then it's not a good thing.

867

: 00:48:28

But if you have a rapid growth.

868

: 00:48:30

Yeah, it's a good thing.

869

: 00:48:31

I see, I see perfect.

870

: 00:48:34

And next one,

all devs should be in-house or outsourced.

871

: 00:48:39

In-house. In-house. Okay. Period.

872

: 00:48:42

Okay. Got it, got it.

What about the start?

873

: 00:48:45

Is it still okay to, to outsource?

874

: 00:48:49

No, we we didn't outsource

any companies today.

875

: 00:48:54

And I think the, the amount of knowledge

876

: 00:48:57

you can get when you do it

in-house, it's priceless.

877

: 00:49:01

You know, in terms of learning

how to work with the developer.

878

: 00:49:04

Yeah, okay.

879

: 00:49:05

Not just how to work with the developer,

but during the process of development,

880

: 00:49:08

you have interactions

and you have discoveries,

881

: 00:49:12

during this process,

and you want to keep it at home,

882

: 00:49:15

I see, I see

and when you started doing that,

883

: 00:49:18

the it just came to me, you know,

884

: 00:49:21

as, as a separate sort of question, but,

you know, element of that.

885

: 00:49:25

Did you have any like,

major breakthroughs,

886

: 00:49:27

like as soon as you started

working with your devs,

887

: 00:49:29

you know,

did they bring up anything like major

888

: 00:49:31

that like, oh, we never, you know,

we never even thought about it.

889

: 00:49:35

Oh, definitely.

890

: 00:49:36

And that's the reason I'm saying,

you need to, to keep your

891

: 00:49:40

and I'm sorry for all of the companies

that, you know, selling

892

: 00:49:43

services for developments

in the, the developers outside.

893

: 00:49:47

But yeah, definitely.

894

: 00:49:49

It's something that we are stick to.

895

: 00:49:51

I see, I see obviously,

you know, there's going to be a difference

896

: 00:49:54

between like making a small app for,

I don't know, booking meetings and,

897

: 00:49:58

you know, a product like but for that

you don't need any development.

898

: 00:50:01

Now you can do that. Yeah.

899

: 00:50:02

So you guys are still saying.

900

: 00:50:05

They still make some lot.

901

: 00:50:09

Okay.

902

: 00:50:09

The next one. Okay.

903

: 00:50:13

And that's a tricky one.

904

: 00:50:14

And I struggle to answer this one myself

as well.

905

: 00:50:17

Okay.

906

: 00:50:18

Innovation and constantly

907

: 00:50:21

being at the forefront of the,

the actual technology.

908

: 00:50:24

So you're like, offering the latest, the,

the best, etc.

909

: 00:50:29

versus just something a bit more

old school but really tried and tested.

910

: 00:50:34

So it's executed perfect innovation. Okay.

911

: 00:50:37

Even if it's not perfect,

even if it because it's not perfect.

912

: 00:50:41

We have we have customers

913

: 00:50:46

that agreed

to use our beta testing, features

914

: 00:50:51

and we constantly publish new,

915

: 00:50:54

functions and, areas of the system.

916

: 00:50:59

And it works for most of our customers

wants to be in the, in the beta.

917

: 00:51:04

So and they use it, they, they love it

and they know it will be a buggy.

918

: 00:51:08

Thing we try not to publish things

919

: 00:51:11

with, with bugs, but you always have bugs.

920

: 00:51:14

And, and it's okay.

And it's a good thing.

921

: 00:51:18

And we get feedback from them

while we developing the thing.

922

: 00:51:23

And we, we when we take the feedback

so we can improve the, the thing we put

923

: 00:51:28

before it's, you know, it's

a finalized version of that, I see, I see.

924

: 00:51:32

So I think I've got a feeling now

how you might answer the next one.

925

: 00:51:36

What do you think of the zero bug policy.

926

: 00:51:39

No, no, no, we don't need that. Got it.

927

: 00:51:43

I did come across a couple of

928

: 00:51:45

companies who are like,

absolutely no, it's got to be a zero bugs.

929

: 00:51:48

And then we launch and I'm like,

is it realistic?

930

: 00:51:51

Even, you know, if the

if in even the biggest companies,

931

: 00:51:55

in terms of the innovation,

they have bugs.

932

: 00:52:00

Apple, for example. Oh, of course.

933

: 00:52:02

So it's I don't see any with that.

934

: 00:52:06

And do you see a trend on, on the adoption

935

: 00:52:10

of that latest

like, better version and stuff like this?

936

: 00:52:13

Is it usually the,

the really longstanding customers

937

: 00:52:16

or is it just across the

customers wants to, to be,

938

: 00:52:21

in our experience, okay.

939

: 00:52:23

Customers wants to be first

and get advantage in the B2B market

940

: 00:52:27

to get advantage in the market.

941

: 00:52:29

So if they have something they can do

942

: 00:52:30

much better than their competitors,

they would want to to use it.

943

: 00:52:34

Okay, okay.

944

: 00:52:37

That links

perfectly with the next question.

945

: 00:52:40

So how you

946

: 00:52:41

give them the access to that advantage,

which is your software basically.

947

: 00:52:45

What would you prefer a, an entry point,

948

: 00:52:50

which would be like a really low

but limited features subscription models.

949

: 00:52:55

So you get the client first

and then you scale the

950

: 00:52:59

the revenue growth with them over time.

951

: 00:53:01

And you just unlock the, you know,

let's say, features with some tiers.

952

: 00:53:06

Or is it, you know, from the start

it's, it's a contract like this

953

: 00:53:09

and it's usually a bit, you know,

954

: 00:53:10

higher priced because of that leverage

is so high for the client.

955

: 00:53:14

What would be your sort of preference

there.

956

: 00:53:17

The second one because, in the CRM

industry, for example,

957

: 00:53:22

it's very common that you buy a system

958

: 00:53:25

and you want to use even half of it.

959

: 00:53:28

That's true.

960

: 00:53:28

And we believe that

when you as a business buy

961

: 00:53:32

a software, it should generate revenue.

962

: 00:53:35

Also should generate revenue.

963

: 00:53:37

And if I would say you sell you

something that costs like, let's say

964

: 00:53:42

50% of the that the full price,

but it won't generate revenue.

965

: 00:53:47

So the difference of couple

of hundreds of pounds or something

966

: 00:53:51

is not relevant to the end

to to the end result.

967

: 00:53:55

Okay.

968

: 00:53:56

The business is not coming to us to

in order to save some hundreds of

969

: 00:54:01

thousands of pounds is is coming to us

970

: 00:54:04

because it wants to generate more revenue

and revenue.

971

: 00:54:07

It's hundreds of thousands

or or more than that or less than that.

972

: 00:54:12

But it doesn't really matter.

973

: 00:54:13

But it's much more than the saving.

974

: 00:54:16

Amount

I see, I see, so it's it's a bit like you

975

: 00:54:20

put a, let's say 1 pound in,

but you get five back.

976

: 00:54:23

So it's only logical

to put as much as you can

977

: 00:54:26

in that initial pot

so it can grow five times.

978

: 00:54:29

Yeah I see I see okay.

979

: 00:54:30

That's a that's a great

I would, I wouldn't eliminate the,

980

: 00:54:34

you know the features

that that can help you as a business

981

: 00:54:37

just because pricing because of pricing.

982

: 00:54:41

So I see yeah.

983

: 00:54:42

And for the guys out there,

984

: 00:54:44

do you think this is specific

to your niche

985

: 00:54:47

or because it's it's that type of product

or, you know, are they like,

986

: 00:54:51

what I'm getting with this is, you know,

are there specific products

987

: 00:54:53

that this could might still be a valid,

you know, growth strategy.

988

: 00:54:57

So you just get in first and then you just

slowly grow with the client.

989

: 00:55:00

Yeah.

990

: 00:55:01

But but we do something really similar

without the price.

991

: 00:55:05

So we said, let's

992

: 00:55:09

give you the ability as a

993

: 00:55:10

business, let's give you the ability

to work in the system free of charge.

994

: 00:55:14

And only if the system, generated twice

995

: 00:55:18

as much as you can generate

without the system, then you can buy it.

996

: 00:55:22

So you get the free version of the system

to test it.

997

: 00:55:26

And then you can

you will pay the full price.

998

: 00:55:29

Amazing.

999

: 00:55:30

But but we are in the we

: 1000

00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,360

our product is a high high ticket product.

: 1001

00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,520

But if you go to a low ticket product,

: 1002

00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,880

then it makes much more sense

to, to do an entry,

: 1003

00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,600

pricing freemium or something

and then grow from there.

: 1004

00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,800

But then you need to have

a really good processes,

: 1005

00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,240

you know, to make customer

educate customers and make them

: 1006

00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,080

understand that they need more features

and then to pay.

: 1007

00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:07,120

So you need the customer success

automated, systems that will help him.

: 1008

00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,400

And it's really, really difficult.

: 1009

00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,320

So I see yeah. Okay.

: 1010

00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:16,600

And the last question in that

in that segment is about AI,

: 1011

00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,760

specifically, you know, how it enhances

: 1012

00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,760

the, let's say, interactions.

: 1013

00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,720

So, let me just read this out

because it's a one of the longer

: 1014

00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:31,040

questions, AI driven automation

with limited human input

: 1015

00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,480

versus human led processes

enhanced by technology.

: 1016

00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:40,200

So which how do you see the proportions

shifting because you're so close to it?

: 1017

00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,800

Obviously

you have a good line of sight of that.

: 1018

00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,560

Yeah. So first, I think

: 1019

00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,520

again, it will be both.

: 1020

00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,920

It should be both

because there are processes

: 1021

00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,840

in which you don't need human involved.

: 1022

00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:55,240

Okay.

: 1023

00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:58,560

To send, WhatsApp customers WhatsApp.

: 1024

00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,560

You don't need any human involved.

: 1025

00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:06,040

But in order to do a much more complex,

: 1026

00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,080

processes like do the cell,

: 1027

00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,200

you will need to have really good

: 1028

00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,800

salesperson enhanced by AI.

: 1029

00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,880

And that's the future we're going to

: 1030

00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,480

we will have

and that's what we do also we will have

: 1031

00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,720

really smart salesperson.

: 1032

00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,800

In which he doesn't know

only what happened

: 1033

00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,000

during the conversation with you,

but he knows.

: 1034

00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,160

Where did you visit last time

you had a vacation?

: 1035

00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,320

And he he will know much more things

about yourself

: 1036

00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,200

and your personality

and what might work in that case.

: 1037

00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:47,280

And he will be

: 1038

00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,440

able to give you much more value,

as a customer.

: 1039

00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:50,640

Yeah.

: 1040

00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:54,840

The number of the calls where I just,

you know, jump in the conversation

: 1041

00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,280

and I just don't really know

who I'm talking to because it's either

: 1042

00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,480

the first time and maybe the handover

notes weren't that great, you know.

: 1043

00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,040

And you're kind of guessing okay.

: 1044

00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,880

Who are you even facing in that meeting

to have something like this?

: 1045

00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:08,760

I think it's priceless to be.

: 1046

00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,320

Yeah. Yeah it is.

It makes such a big difference. Yeah.

: 1047

00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:12,480

You know who you're facing.

: 1048

00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:12,800

Okay.

: 1049

00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,000

This person is this, this, this,

you know, even within the organization,

: 1050

00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:17,840

when somebody contacts you,

: 1051

00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,200

they don't always describe their position

in the business in the in the footer.

: 1052

00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,200

So you're like,

okay, like who are you in this business?

: 1053

00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,800

Like are you the decision maker?

Are you not often

: 1054

00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,480

you can just tell by their tone

and how they're composed, etc.

: 1055

00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:35,120

but obviously it's not something that

you just know coming in that conversation.

: 1056

00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,160

So but you need to look

at the other side as well, because it's

: 1057

00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:42,680

not just the business experience, it's

also the customer experience, of course,

: 1058

00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:48,640

because if the customer, can have,

you know, a personalized process

: 1059

00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,640

and someone will really know what he,

: 1060

00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,560

what he means

and what he wants, and what he need,

: 1061

00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:58,200

then the

: 1062

00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,200

process will be much better

and he will be able to take,

: 1063

00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:05,000

decisions that are much fit to his case.

: 1064

00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,520

Then, you know, in other cases facing.

: 1065

00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:10,360

Yeah. Okay.

: 1066

00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,280

So that's this segment done.

: 1067

00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:14,120

Thank you very much for this.

: 1068

00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:18,040

gives everybody a good idea of,

how have you, structured

: 1069

00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:23,240

and how you, you approach the business

sort of, topics and matters.

: 1070

00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,680

And at the very end,

because we're kind of getting close to

: 1071

00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,800

to the end of our conversation,

I just wanted to have a more sort

: 1072

00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,600

of candid, conversation

about, the general, concepts.

: 1073

00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,000

One thing that I really, wanted to,

: 1074

00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,440

address is obviously AI is not going

away.

: 1075

00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:45,600

it's only going to become more

and more sort of embedded into everything.

: 1076

00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,320

Where do you see your business?

: 1077

00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,200

You know, actually

ending up at some point, you know,

: 1078

00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,360

is this

something that you're want to see,

: 1079

00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,400

you know, utilized

by all, bigger businesses out there?

: 1080

00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,880

Or is there a specific type

or maybe, you know,

: 1081

01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,320

structure of businesses that you just find

that you work best with?

: 1082

01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,600

Is there a specific niche

only that you're targeting

: 1083

01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,960

or you know, you want to make it

as as universal as possible?

: 1084

01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:16,600

So whether it's 600 people,

you know, team or a ten people

: 1085

01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,000

team, it's still going to work as well

and bring as much value.

: 1086

01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:25,160

So I think that we need to understand

the whole business industry,

: 1087

01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:30,040

will change in the next few years

because as we said,

: 1088

01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:35,240

there will be jobs

that will be, out of the word

: 1089

01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:37,000

because of a.

: 1090

01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:37,520

Yeah. Yeah.

: 1091

01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:42,160

So I'm not sure

that the size of the business

: 1092

01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,600

is the right, way to, to, to see

: 1093

01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,640

what is your match with the businesses.

: 1094

01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,280

I'm pretty sure that the, the way we will

: 1095

01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,760

look at businesses

will, will be change and and evolve.

: 1096

01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,280

In the next 1 or 2 years, it's

not that much time.

: 1097

01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,880

But I think that we will be in a, in,

in, in a space

: 1098

01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:11,600

where we can empower,

those that needs to do that.

: 1099

01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,440

You know, the,

the revenue, related, jobs,

: 1100

01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,920

for example, account

executives, for example,

: 1101

01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:25,760

physical meetings, for example,

managers that will have to, to, to,

: 1102

01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,880

to decide what they should do next

: 1103

01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,880

in order to have advantage in the market.

: 1104

01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,440

So that's the space we're going to be at.

: 1105

01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:36,320

Okay, I see, I see

: 1106

01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,280

and from what you noticed, you know,

how much of a difference does it make?

: 1107

01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,320

Typically, you know,

so let's say you have a new client sign up

: 1108

01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:48,480

a their sales team, you know, obviously

they were hitting the targets.

: 1109

01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:48,760

Right.

: 1110

01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,320

But it wasn't anything,

you know, spectacular.

: 1111

01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:52,560

You like. Right.

: 1112

01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:55,760

You know,

you walk in with with with your solution.

: 1113

01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,640

You know, what do you notice

immediately at their end or what do

: 1114

01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,680

what do they report to you

that they notice immediately?

: 1115

01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:07,400

Is it mainly the time saving element

and how well they can operate

: 1116

01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,720

with what they are given?

: 1117

01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:09,320

Or is there

: 1118

01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,080

actual like, you know, direct impact

on the revenue that they are generating?

: 1119

01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,440

So the

only thing we measure is the revenue.

: 1120

01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:17,840

Okay.

: 1121

01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:22,560

And because we are so sure

about the system and what it can do,

: 1122

01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:28,440

we say, as I said before,

we say, okay, let's test the system.

: 1123

01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:29,000

Yeah.

: 1124

01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,840

And only if it causes you to double

: 1125

01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:37,320

the results of your sales reps,

which mean at revenue.

: 1126

01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,600

Only then you should buy the system

: 1127

01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:44,560

and receive businesses

that literally either

: 1128

01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:49,720

doubled the revenue or literally needs

less team members to do that.

: 1129

01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:54,160

And, we don't encourage everyone to,

: 1130

01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,440

you know, to work with less, sales reps.

: 1131

01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:03,360

But we we do encourage people

to optimize the process.

: 1132

01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,080

And if you can generate more leads.

: 1133

01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,080

So you will keep the whole team,

: 1134

01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,480

but generate more leads and then generate

more revenue with our system.

: 1135

01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,680

So it's either way And that's

what we are testing with the system.

: 1136

01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,360

And it's a, you know, it's disclaimer,

: 1137

01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,800

we're not promising everything, etc.,

: 1138

01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,000

but we can show any business,

: 1139

01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,640

you know,

not any, but 90% of the businesses

: 1140

01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:35,120

that are interacting with us,

that we can at least double the results.

: 1141

01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:36,240

Okay.

: 1142

01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,240

And did you see any difference between

because obviously

: 1143

01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,680

you have a few different approaches

to, to sales.

: 1144

01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:45,920

It could be a very like gentle soft sale

kind of approach or really like,

: 1145

01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,920

aggressive sort of campaigns and stuff

like this, you know, just bombarding

: 1146

01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,520

clients with, you know, constant,

you know, communication, marketing

: 1147

01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:57,360

materials and then, you know, approaches

from the sales team directly.

: 1148

01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,960

Which one of these scenarios

or maybe a bit of both.

: 1149

01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,000

Does the solution fit in better?

: 1150

01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,240

So, the, the, the example

I, I give all the time is

: 1151

01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,960

that let's take whatever process

you're doing at the moment and let's put,

: 1152

01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,320

let's, clone the, the,

: 1153

01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,720

the exact sales representative

you have at the moment.

: 1154

01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:21,400

Let's clone him.

: 1155

01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:26,760

Now you have two of the same one

know, what will be the result?

: 1156

01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:29,160

So all of them are

: 1157

01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,240

saying, yeah,

I will double the, the results.

: 1158

01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,480

So it doesn't really matter the process.

: 1159

01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,960

If you have something in place that works,

we will optimize this process

: 1160

01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:44,000

and also double the efficiency

and what what the sales rep can do I see,

: 1161

01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:48,400

I see so you're basically

if if somebody is aggressive

: 1162

01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:50,880

they can be twice as aggressive.

: 1163

01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:52,120

Not not twice as aggressive.

: 1164

01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:54,640

You know like like twice

the amount of people.

: 1165

01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:55,360

Efficient.

: 1166

01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,360

Yeah. Yeah okay okay. That's amazing.

: 1167

01:04:58,440 --> 01:04:59,720

Okay.

: 1168

01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,400

And I think, you know, in terms of the,

the technical and product

: 1169

01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,720

related sort of, you know, conversation,

I think that's it.

: 1170

01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,480

We've covered pretty much anything

: 1171

01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,280

unless there is something specific

that you would like to also put out

: 1172

01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,280

there is as your message

on that sort of element.

: 1173

01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,400

But one thing that you want

: 1174

01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,800

that you mentioned at some point,

during our break is,

: 1175

01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,560

is, is something I picked up on that

I would really like your opinion on this,

: 1176

01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:28,680

it music

: 1177

01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:32,960

that that's been part of your,

you know, story to some extent.

: 1178

01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,440

And I have a feeling

that this might have a profound,

: 1179

01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,800

link to the fact

that you are now capable of building

: 1180

01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,560

something of your own

because you practice a craft.

: 1181

01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,560

So you know that it takes time

and it takes reps

: 1182

01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,360

and you have to just keep practicing

and building that skill.

: 1183

01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,680

Would you compare that to because,

you know, standing outside of that

: 1184

01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,040

and just hearing this story,

it just sounded exactly like this to me.

: 1185

01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:03,560

So what would you say about that one?

: 1186

01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:05,200

I never thought about it.

: 1187

01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,360

But yeah, it's

it sounds like it's related.

: 1188

01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:13,040

I think it's more,

: 1189

01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:18,760

the approach that I have to life

that you should never give up.

: 1190

01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,640

You should try and try and try and try

until you succeed.

: 1191

01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:26,640

Because each time it's you increment,

you will do it better.

: 1192

01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:30,000

Because if you learn from something,

then you will do it later.

: 1193

01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:36,040

For example, when my my child

ride on a bike for the first time

: 1194

01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:39,440

and he found on the floor

and it really hurt,

: 1195

01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,560

I said, it's a good thing

you should remember.

: 1196

01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,520

It's a great thing that happened to you.

: 1197

01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:47,680

Next time you will learn from it.

: 1198

01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:49,320

And I

: 1199

01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,880

think this is the most important thing

as an entrepreneur.

: 1200

01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:57,680

To understand that you will fail,

you will get,

: 1201

01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:01,640

you know, beated a lot of time

and it will hurt.

: 1202

01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:04,000

It will really hurt.

: 1203

01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,400

But you need

to, to stand up and keep doing it.

: 1204

01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,640

And until it works,

it reminds me of a quote

: 1205

01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:15,640

I think it might have been,

Jocko willing, who says that?

: 1206

01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,800

That every point of change.

: 1207

01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:20,160

No matter how painful it is,

: 1208

01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,560

there's always something good

that's going to come out of that.

: 1209

01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:24,960

And yeah,

I, I've seen this in my own life.

: 1210

01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:27,360

And from what you're saying, I can

I can sense that

: 1211

01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,720

it might have been similar to you as well.

: 1212

01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,760

Would you agree with that? Totally agree.

: 1213

01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,560

So you need to understand that

the pain is not infinity.

: 1214

01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:41,760

It will end and then you will raise and,

: 1215

01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,600

grow up

and, and do, do it better next time.

: 1216

01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:48,200

I see okay.

: 1217

01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,280

Thank you very much. Thank you so much.

: 1218

01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:51,440

It's great to be here.

: 1219

01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,360

Great conversation. Thank you.