How do people feel about your brand? - Business of Design

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and he says, it's not

what you say about your brand to be true.

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It's the gut feeling of the person

who perceives you.

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Feel the rush.

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It's a gravity high.

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Talking tech is the planets fly.

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The upgrades on the show begins.

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Sit right back and let the future's.

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All right.

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Nice. So, Rakesh.

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Hello, my friend.

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It's so good to have you on the show.

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It's been a while

since we've seen each other.

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Must have been, what, two years now?

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2023. In London.

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So nearly three years then? Yeah.

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Through, a couple of mentors. Right?

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Now one of them became a big name,

Daniel Priestley.

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Right.

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You know, and obviously,

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Chris, though I think everybody listening,

tuning in will recognize Chris.

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So shout out.

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Take us through your story.

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How did you sort of end up where you are?

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Share some sort of,

you know, personal stories.

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You know, we're open to that.

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Well, firstly, thank you for having me.

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Dan,

I appreciate you having me here to talk.

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Obviously, I am Rakesh Makwana,

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a brand designer and art director

who helps basically

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founders and business owners, startups,

maybe medium size as well, businesses

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to create the visual identity

that connects with the audience.

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In essence. Who wouldn't need that?

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You think?

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Right. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So in a nutshell,

you know I help great visual graphics

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for businesses

that resonate with the audiences

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from the obvious of logos,

but brand systems, even behaviors as well.

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Sometimes we tap into depending

on the business type.

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Yeah.

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You know,

mixed with strategic strategy as well.

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So I'm not a strategy designer

in any shape or form, but I do

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strategic design

in terms of like it's intentional.

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Purposeful. Got it. Just decorative.

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Got it. You know.

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And so yeah, that's kind of what I do.

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And I've. Been fantastic at.

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So obviously I started out

well let me in a nutshell I'll go back.

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I was six.

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I, I've always loved design.

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Okay.

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Ever since the age of seven.

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Eight.

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I say this because I come. Probably.

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Why not? Probably.

I come from a creative family.

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My father was a tailor

and his father was a tailor.

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And their father?

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And in my family.

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From my uncles, cousins brother as well.

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They were artists.

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They draw

or they create things they really craft.

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They had

this element of making and create.

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So it was always instilled in me.

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I remember at the age of like eight,

sitting at my dad's sewing machine, making

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hand puppets with eyes, with buttons

as the eyes and stuff. Wow.

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These are early, fond memories.

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So creativity was always there.

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And then when I went into school,

secondary, you know,

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I always was better with my hands

or thinking and credit rating.

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Academically I used to struggle.

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Which I found out

in later years in university.

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Diagnosed with dyslexia.

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So it kind of connected

whereas I was struggle with them elements

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which I didn't enjoy as much as to

anything art or design or making.

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I was just fully in.

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I was really always kind of in tuned

with that element, which is what I went

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into, into college and into university

to pursue design and everything.

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So it was my language.

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Let's say I see, I. See connect.

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And what was your,

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design education like?

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You mentioned that you went through

that education, sort of.

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I'm assuming the, the, the sort of

typical education sort of path.

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How did you find it? Was it was it useful?

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Did it open any sort of like,

you know, maybe, approach,

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you know, a new approach

to certain things for you, or did it

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simply wake up

something that was already there?

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What what would you say about that one?

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So this pinnacle moment,

I remember it was in college.

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I was studying a

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bachelor or.

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No. Sorry.

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A black National diploma in graphic

design.

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Okay. Context.

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It was just after secondary school.

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So it was from age 16 to 18.

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Okay. For two years.

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And at that age, we're a teenager.

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You know, I wasn't

I knew what I wanted to do,

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but I wasn't really giving it

my full attention in the first year.

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Got it.

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And my tutor at the time,

at the end of the first year, said,

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you're not really progressing here.

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And if you don't fix up,

we can't allow you to do the second year.

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Oh, and something and I remember this

switched in me was like, oh wait, hold up.

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If I don't do the second year,

what would I do?

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So I didn't want to fail in that

and not do the second year

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because I love design,

but I just wasn't giving it my attention.

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I was busy socializing with friends.

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And just being a teenager.

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But then that switched.

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When she said that to me,

I changed my mindset behavior,

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I started working, I would be in class

doing the research and focus.

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So that, I think, was a moment where

I realized I wanted to be doing design.

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So I need to focus in.

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I see.

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So and then after that I went in,

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went to university to do a BA Honors

Graphic design.

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Nice. For three years.

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And so

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going back to your question,

what did I take or how was that?

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Yeah.

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At the time I thought,

oh, this is brilliant.

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Okay.

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And, you know, learning

and I was learning skills and element.

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But coming out of university

and having gone into work, obviously

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skipping all that year, I realized,

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I don't know if I really took a lot away,

which I applied to myself.

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And seen.

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Okay.

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Of business skills, design

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theories and concepts and ideology

at that time.

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Yes, I got that,

but I think I learned more a lot after.

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I still believe they serve the purpose.

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Yeah, I wouldn't say,

oh yeah, I did that and that helped me.

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I see what I'm doing now necessarily.

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Okay. It's interesting.

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I can say a similar thing about my,

university days.

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When I was studying it again,

there was very little

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that I would apply later

in actually real life scenarios.

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It was just a lot of theory

which helped to have,

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let's say,

the background of certain concepts.

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Fine.

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But then when it comes to

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actual practical applications, there

wasn't that much that I could actually

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use take away with me and just, just,

you know, use at work.

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Yeah.

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So, okay, it sounds to me

like it's a similar sort of thing.

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I never studied design per se.

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I will sell thought, you know,

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so whoever you know, whatever I would be

doing around that sort of niche,

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it was always just, you know, self-taught,

you know, finding those voices online.

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You know, what they do,

how they do certain things.

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So I would just

mimic and try to learn from that.

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But like I said, not to not design

education.

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What I did, I think it did help.

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It allowed me to

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in into

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that design industry,

understanding things at that time.

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Again, when I was studying,

it was in: 1998

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So it was a long time

AI was no longer there.

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And I think the Imax just kind of came in.

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I remember

I got my first iMac, as a second year

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in my university and was like,

wow, you know, it was the the.

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What a machine.

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Yeah.

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So the computers were there,

but they weren't as advanced,

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but they were there.

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So it was I was at that period,

the transition from quite

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traditional methods of like typesetting,

literary and hand-drawn from college

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and going into the computer

area as well. So.

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Wow. Did it help you

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identify your style

at that stage, or did you find that later?

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Definitely didn't help me identify style.

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I was following trends at that time.

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And back then, like

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David Carson, a renowned graphic

designer, and magazines like Reagan

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was very

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grunge, distressed,

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rough surf type of graphics.

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You know,

the type was eating away, distressed.

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You know,

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text and copy body was mixed match,

you know,

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challenging the grid system.

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But it was understanding the grid system,

grid system, sorry.

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And pushing it

and pushing the boundaries almost.

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So you. Almost.

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Know how to break it basically.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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You kind of learn, you know, and I think

the more you do of it you kind of learn.

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So I.

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See back then I did a, I had a style,

but then it was, it was a, my style.

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It was what I'm seeing out there.

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And with mimicking

and part of the education even today

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I think is mimicking

but then understanding why does it work.

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So I think I go into a lot of design

thinking about

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when I look at a design,

let's say a poster or graphic,

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rather than

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just face value saying,

oh, it's good, it's bad.

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I try to understand why does it work?

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Why is a negative space here working?

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Why is this? Sure.

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You know, I try to understand

the system psychology behind it.

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Almost. Yeah.

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It's very,

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under advertised area

because many businesses

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and I'm sure many listeners

will say the same thing.

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It's hard

to find a moment to think of these things.

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And people don't realize how important

having somebody like you involved in

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how they build their brand

from early stages,

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and what difference it's going to make

because you know how you are perceived.

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Obviously, this is your business card.

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You know, everybody's business card.

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It used to be a piece of paper, right.

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Not anymore.

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Right.

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It's the social media.

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It's how you show yourself.

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So then, you know, having a really, like,

solid visual

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set of materials and then a clear vision

of how you should use them.

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You know, without that,

where do you go? Right.

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You know,

you're missing out opportunities.

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You know, a number of times I see a van,

which is okay.

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There is like some,

some design, you know, geometry, whatever.

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You know, it might be working, might not.

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I'm not judging that element,

but you know it.

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Email address, contact details

at gmail.com.

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Instead of their own name.

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You know, just bragging about

the name of their company and all that.

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You know, you don't have those custom

domains sometimes.

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And these guys don't get me wrong,

they get the jobs.

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But, you know,

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I think there is a big portion

that they are missing out on just on that,

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let's say less

professional approach to certain things.

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Yeah I guess yeah.

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No, definitely I do agree with that.

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And I think how I look

at sometimes visual brand or visual

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identity is let's say logos for example.

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Right.

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We think of logos or people would say,

oh, that's your brand, but it's not.

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It's part of a tiny piece of what

a brand is. Yes.

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You know, Marty Neumeier

says this really well about what brand is.

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He's the author of the Brand Gap book,

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and he says,

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it's not what you say about your brand

to be true.

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It's the gut feeling of the person

who perceives you.

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Yeah. You know who's the customer?

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100. Percent,

I think a fantastic way of looking at it,

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because we might shout and say,

oh, look, I'm this, I'm that my business.

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We shouting about our business,

we do this, we help people do this.

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But then

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we can say that.

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But how it's received is really a true

reflection, right?

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Yes. Of that. Yeah.

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So I think visuals and graphics and logos,

all of these parts from, you know,

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they are just a reminder to people

when they see you,

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whether it's externally,

you know, if you've got signage,

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business cards, stationery,

even social platform helpful.

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It's a reminder of

you come to top of mind.

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And what helps come top of

mind is consistency.

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For example,

because we are creatures of habit

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and how we see, you know,

if we look at Egyptian.

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Glyphs back in the day, right?

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Yeah. Picture

then it was how storytelling in.

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we see things visually

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trigger something in us. Right.

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Oh 100. Percent

emotional connection happening. Yes.

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So a brand identity

that's done consistently with color,

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typography, graphics and messaging,

even words play a part of that.

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Yep. It in builds an emotional connection

in somebody to then decide

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whether they buy from you or absolutely

are you part of that tribe or you're not.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's

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why we've got all these like niches

like color psychology and all that.

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And it all is important, isn't it?

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You know,

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if you use black and gold, obviously

it's going to give you one impression

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if you're using jade or,

you know, all these kind of like,

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earthy tones, it's

going to be a different impression.

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Whether it's, you know,

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whether you're aiming for trust,

whether you're aiming for luxury looks.

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Yeah, it all serves a purpose, right.

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So and every brand is different.

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So it's important to go through

that sort of, analysis with somebody,

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you know, of, of your sort of, you know,

expertise to, to then understand, okay.

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Where does my brand even fit?

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Who am I aiming for as a client?

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You know, you should kind of know that

anyway when you're starting things out,

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but sometimes you arrive on

certain conclusions later on.

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So having that process at the early stage

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and going through

that is, I'd say, really like invaluable.

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No, it's totally very valuable.

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And this is something part of my process.

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So let's say a client signs

we agree on a proposal.

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They sign document to start work

before any design work is started.

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We do discovery.

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Yeah.

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Would be like we are unpacking.

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You say you want a brand identity system.

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I would question why do you want it?

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Why are you hoping to achieve from it?

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How would you measure it?

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What do you think

it's going to give the business?

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Yeah.

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You know, and these questions I think

questions are so powerful to unpack

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and for me to understand firstly

because this is their business,

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this is their thing,

of course I want to learn.

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But then in this discovery sessions,

by asking questions why they want,

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what do they hope to achieve?

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We often find

I say we, the client often finds out.

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I didn't even think about what

this impact or something else, you know.

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So we are learning and they're learning

in that process as well.

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And it's helping me because I'm getting

raw information from them.

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Yeah.

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Which I document and data and put down

when I did a design process later.

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You know, it's designed with substance.

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I'm going by data and experience

of what they've said.

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But then there's also a benchmarking

as well looking at the competitors.

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Yeah.

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What are they doing

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and what I like I mentioned earlier about

when you look at a poster for example,

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and you see a face value,

why does it work a certain way?

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So similarly we analyze benchmarks usually

what's working and what's not.

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In our opinion, how is it perceived, you

know, just to understand the landscape.

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Yeah.

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You have a understanding that we as

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a service provider

and a client understand that our line.

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Sure.

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Do we agree on these things? Sure.

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Or not even even challenge it.

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Yeah. Self selfish question at this point.

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How often do they know

answers to these questions?

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And how often do you actually have

to lead them step by step to actually

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help you or help

them answer these questions for you?

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Because I bet

some of them would simply not know.

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Yeah.

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And it really varies.

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Depends on it really varies.

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I wouldn't know percentages

like, you know, people

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who don't quite often.

341

: 00:15:55

It's not they don't know.

342

: 00:15:57

I think

going through the conversational process

343

: 00:16:00

and talking about it, it unpacks

more things that they may not be aware of.

344

: 00:16:04

I see.

345

: 00:16:05

So they know their business to a degree,

depending on if there are start ups

346

: 00:16:08

or they're still learning

or they're done their research.

347

: 00:16:11

But then when I've worked with larger

organizations who have hundreds

348

: 00:16:16

and thousands of employees

and going in there with the stakeholders

349

: 00:16:20

and working with them,

they know what they want.

350

: 00:16:23

However they know what they want.

351

: 00:16:26

I want, I don't know,

let's say a brand campaign done

352

: 00:16:29

for this particular product

we're launching.

353

: 00:16:33

Okay.

354

: 00:16:33

But I will still ask conversational.

355

: 00:16:36

I would still ask them

questions to unpack.

356

: 00:16:38

Why is it you want,

what are we trying to unpack?

357

: 00:16:41

And in that conversation what happens

quite often I would say probably higher

358

: 00:16:45

percentage of that 80 or something is

from what they wanting to

359

: 00:16:50

what the result or the delivery is at

the end is a little tweak based.

360

: 00:16:55

I see what the results

they wanted out of it.

361

: 00:16:58

I see the big.

362

: 00:16:59

Thing because you show them

a different perspective

363

: 00:17:01

to look at these things

and how they are supposed to function.

364

: 00:17:04

Yeah, that yeah,

that pays a big part into it as well.

365

: 00:17:08

But I think sometimes

they might have a fixed dated idea

366

: 00:17:12

that I want this

because it's going to give me this result.

367

: 00:17:15

I see, and I just question it

to almost say, well,

368

: 00:17:18

okay, I'm not saying it's not the case,

but I would just challenge it

369

: 00:17:21

and ask questions to see,

is that what the end result is?

370

: 00:17:25

Are we going to see?

371

: 00:17:26

And then through my skill

sets of rating design and resonate.

372

: 00:17:30

Yeah.

373

: 00:17:31

You know, I married the two of what

they want and research and benchmark

374

: 00:17:35

and looking at the industry

and how we make it

375

: 00:17:38

in a way that they own it,

they become them.

376

: 00:17:42

You know.

377

: 00:17:43

I see okay.

378

: 00:17:44

Do you see a lot of friction

at the beginning.

379

: 00:17:47

So and I'm, I'm specifically referring,

referring to, the adoption element.

380

: 00:17:52

So you give them something.

381

: 00:17:53

Okay.

382

: 00:17:54

They say all right. Yeah.

383

: 00:17:55

But do they often say that. Yeah.

384

: 00:17:58

It feels like us or,

you know, is there like, any friction.

385

: 00:18:02

So you have to kind of explain things

to them and just sort of,

386

: 00:18:05

you know, just present it

from that perspective, okay.

387

: 00:18:07

Yeah.

388

: 00:18:08

Because this, this, this and that,

you know, it, it will, you know, embrace,

389

: 00:18:12

you know, the values of the

of the company.

390

: 00:18:14

You know, the mission, the vision

that you've got for yourself and all that.

391

: 00:18:18

Does that happen?

392

: 00:18:19

You know, quite often as well.

393

: 00:18:20

Or so many years ago

when I was learning the,

394

: 00:18:25

the design and the design of business

and business of design.

395

: 00:18:29

Yeah, right.

396

: 00:18:30

It would happen so often.

397

: 00:18:31

Okay. Got it.

398

: 00:18:32

Because I wasn't addressing the objective.

399

: 00:18:36

I was addressing

just esthetics of designs.

400

: 00:18:39

I hope they would like it

based on a very short conversation.

401

: 00:18:43

We would have got it.

402

: 00:18:44

What's changed has been

403

: 00:18:48

I spend a lot of time in the discovery,

like I mentioned, and outlining

404

: 00:18:51

their goals, objective

and even doing user personas like this.

405

: 00:18:56

For who?

406

: 00:18:56

Yes, you want it as a business,

but who are your audiences?

407

: 00:18:59

And we'll go into detail

of having a name for this person

408

: 00:19:03

a age, marital status, salary,

benchmark, references.

409

: 00:19:08

Where do they show? Where do they eat?

410

: 00:19:10

What's their lifestyle?

You really understand that?

411

: 00:19:12

We understand the end user who

the business is trying to attract.

412

: 00:19:16

Got it right.

413

: 00:19:17

So that becomes almost a blueprint

or DNA based on that.

414

: 00:19:21

There's keywords, other important

415

: 00:19:25

aspects of the business

which are plugged in in the discovery.

416

: 00:19:29

And then when I do presented design before

I, before I even presenting, after doing

417

: 00:19:33

that work, I would go into phase

418

: 00:19:37

two, what I called style scapes, okay,

419

: 00:19:40

which is a curated mood board

but detailed with typography color.

420

: 00:19:44

Sure.

421

: 00:19:44

Now typically present to based on

what we've already discussed

422

: 00:19:48

and present and discuss, say look,

this is route A and this is Ruby.

423

: 00:19:54

Just to for us to align to say,

424

: 00:19:57

do they like this visual direction

before we start working going into it.

425

: 00:20:01

Yeah.

426

: 00:20:01

So this is what I've learned before.

427

: 00:20:03

Earlier on in my career,

I would just jump into design.

428

: 00:20:06

I see

this is where I would get into friction.

429

: 00:20:08

I see what's now

430

: 00:20:11

winning the friction.

431

: 00:20:12

Not being there now is doing this process

of checking in with the client.

432

: 00:20:16

This is a style scape B

and we'll have a discussion

433

: 00:20:20

and we'll agree

at that point to say right. We agree.

434

: 00:20:23

We want to go with Stars Gate A

and there will be feedback. And

435

: 00:20:27

and from that point on the design concept

and development happens

436

: 00:20:30

based on the style

and why this is important.

437

: 00:20:33

And what I've learned

is I'm not presenting when I do end up

438

: 00:20:37

presenting a design of, let's say, concept

to a client, they're not surprised.

439

: 00:20:43

So it's almost a stab in the dark.

440

: 00:20:44

They kind of know

what they're going to get

441

: 00:20:46

because, yeah, we've aligned ourselves.

442

: 00:20:48

They know what they like

or what they don't like.

443

: 00:20:50

So I'm kind of addressing things

with a clear focus.

444

: 00:20:54

I see. So that definitely helps.

445

: 00:20:56

I see.

446

: 00:20:57

It sounds to me

447

: 00:20:58

like you rely heavily on the systems

that you've introduced over the years.

448

: 00:21:02

So if you could take us through

how you run your business,

449

: 00:21:05

you know, just to give us an idea

how you've structured things,

450

: 00:21:08

and then we can kind of move on to the,

let's say, what's what's under the hood.

451

: 00:21:12

And you know, what you're using

to help yourself with the process.

452

: 00:21:15

But let's start

with the overall structure.

453

: 00:21:17

How you how let's say,

you know, the client comes in, right.

454

: 00:21:21

Oh I'd like a nice logo.

455

: 00:21:22

Okay. Yeah.

456

: 00:21:23

Obviously

we know what your first question would be.

457

: 00:21:25

But you know, when when it comes

to actually working with that client,

458

: 00:21:28

you know, how how did you sort of

build your systems and,

459

: 00:21:31

and the business structure itself

to, you know, to be able to process it

460

: 00:21:35

and help you to cope with the workloads,

etc..

461

: 00:21:38

Okay.

462

: 00:21:39

So my system or my process

how it typically works from

463

: 00:21:42

let's say I have a kickoff

call a leads come my way.

464

: 00:21:46

I will start off by having a kickoff call

first with the client.

465

: 00:21:49

Yep. To understand what they need,

what they want.

466

: 00:21:53

And really understand what the budget

is, you know.

467

: 00:21:58

Very quick pause to everybody listening.

468

: 00:21:59

What they need and what they want

are two very different things.

469

: 00:22:03

Very different.

470

: 00:22:06

So this

is why the kickoff call is so important,

471

: 00:22:09

because it really determines,

I think, beyond even doing anything.

472

: 00:22:13

Are we going to be a good match?

473

: 00:22:15

Meaning am I going to be the right person

to do this job?

474

: 00:22:17

And are you the right client

for what I need as well?

475

: 00:22:20

Because I think in service providing

we always sometimes not we

476

: 00:22:25

some people at times jump

to always give everything of themselves.

477

: 00:22:30

Whereas I've been more cautious

now to assess, to see

478

: 00:22:34

is this going to help me as well?

If it's not, if we're not good.

479

: 00:22:37

Matt, I'm okay to say, look,

I might not be the person for this.

480

: 00:22:40

I see and recommend them

to some of the other.

481

: 00:22:43

But anyway,

so I'm sorry. Is that the stage?

482

: 00:22:45

Is that the stage

483

: 00:22:45

where you also look for any like red flags

in the way they behave or.

484

: 00:22:49

Okay, okay.

485

: 00:22:50

So hence the kickoff call is really assess

because I've never met them.

486

: 00:22:54

We're jumping on the first call

to see learn about the business

487

: 00:22:58

as people and see if we just gel

or if we don't.

488

: 00:23:01

You know. I. See I'll find out.

489

: 00:23:03

Typically the budget,

the scope of the work.

490

: 00:23:06

And based on that it will well,

491

: 00:23:10

based on that

it will move over to proposal stage.

492

: 00:23:13

So I would give

I would ask for the budget pretty often.

493

: 00:23:18

Clients might say, well

we don't have a budget, I'll give a range.

494

: 00:23:22

And if it fits within that range

before I do a proposal,

495

: 00:23:25

because I don't want to waste my time

with their time.

496

: 00:23:27

I want to be quite clear upfront to say,

look, it will be between this range.

497

: 00:23:31

Is that aligned with you?

498

: 00:23:32

Are you comfortable

with investing in something like this?

499

: 00:23:36

I see.

500

: 00:23:36

And what if they don't?

501

: 00:23:39

Very quickly I realize I don't

I don't take any further.

502

: 00:23:43

Not to say I'm not going to do it,

503

: 00:23:44

but I might recommend them

to somebody else

504

: 00:23:46

because I don't want to go into the

proposal stage or waste my time with this.

505

: 00:23:49

But should they be happy to

invest in that sort of a range?

506

: 00:23:54

I would do a proposal

507

: 00:23:55

that will eyeline my process,

my design, detailed about my business

508

: 00:24:01

credentials, case

509

: 00:24:02

studies, investment

and timelines very detailed.

510

: 00:24:07

And then I'll send that over to them

with a statement of work document

511

: 00:24:12

which stipulates,

512

: 00:24:15

that well,

the teases of the work copyright,

513

: 00:24:20

additional amends

514

: 00:24:22

or, you know, all the fine detail,

exactly what they're going to get.

515

: 00:24:25

So along with the proposal

in the statement and work goes out

516

: 00:24:28

to the client and, and typically

I would present the proposal as well.

517

: 00:24:32

Okay. I think this is important.

518

: 00:24:33

And I've realized this works better

or it has worked better for me because

519

: 00:24:39

when I go through the proposal and explain

and if they have any questions,

520

: 00:24:44

we address things quite straightforward

or in that moment.

521

: 00:24:47

So always the case depending

on the client, they're quite busy.

522

: 00:24:49

They have other commitments.

523

: 00:24:51

Sometimes I have to send it

524

: 00:24:53

Should they agree with the proposal,

the cost and everything.

525

: 00:24:57

The same document.

526

: 00:24:58

Yep I use Adobe Doc sign,

527

: 00:25:01

which is a process which helps me out

because I don't have to keep chasing.

528

: 00:25:05

So it's sent to them.

529

: 00:25:07

They sign it, pay 50% up

front of the total cost of the project.

530

: 00:25:10

Yep, comes back to me.

531

: 00:25:12

And at that point only does

the discovery session happen.

532

: 00:25:16

You've just touched

on very critical point,

533

: 00:25:18

because I don't think many of us think,

especially at the very early stage

534

: 00:25:22

of the business, about ways

how you can secure yourself.

535

: 00:25:25

You know, you walk into a project,

536

: 00:25:27

especially if you have to purchase

some materials and deliver some some work.

537

: 00:25:30

Or maybe you're

538

: 00:25:31

you're buying some licenses

to be able to deliver, you know,

539

: 00:25:34

what you've just said about,

540

: 00:25:35

you know, signing it off,

but also as part of that process,

541

: 00:25:38

they give you some money up front

and only then you start the actual work.

542

: 00:25:41

Yes, I think it's so critical.

543

: 00:25:43

So, you know, great

that you've already got that.

544

: 00:25:46

And, and it's just it's just

545

: 00:25:49

why it's critical is that

they are committed to this as well.

546

: 00:25:52

Yeah. And you know,

547

: 00:25:54

I then trust

and we trust each other to say, right.

548

: 00:25:57

We want to move forward. Yeah.

549

: 00:25:59

You know, it's, trust in knowing for

and that's typically my process.

550

: 00:26:05

But yeah that's how that happens. So.

551

: 00:26:11

After the signing happen

then we do discovery.

552

: 00:26:13

Cool. Okay.

553

: 00:26:15

This is where we go.

554

: 00:26:17

Like it may be a

555

: 00:26:20

workshop.

556

: 00:26:20

We might do half a day or few hours

depending.

557

: 00:26:23

Okay.

558

: 00:26:24

And we'll go

I call it this client workbook,

559

: 00:26:28

which I got actually there was a template

from Jay Crawley.

560

: 00:26:31

Shout out to him

if anyone wants to buy this template.

561

: 00:26:35

It's really helpful. Okay.

562

: 00:26:36

And why it's helpful

is because it it's a process

563

: 00:26:40

that I go through

with the client to unpack.

564

: 00:26:44

What is it

they want, you know, what's their mission?

565

: 00:26:46

What's the vision? Okay.

566

: 00:26:48

You know what?

567

: 00:26:49

If they want this logo or brand system,

you know, what things do they like?

568

: 00:26:53

What colors, what things have worked?

What things haven't worked?

569

: 00:26:55

What are the challenges they face?

570

: 00:26:58

I'm packing so many things,

not just esthetic design, but,

571

: 00:27:01

you know, I would even ask questions.

572

: 00:27:03

Have they worked with previous designers

in the past?

573

: 00:27:05

Okay.

574

: 00:27:05

And I would ask what didn't go

well because I want to ensure

575

: 00:27:10

that I don't apply or do the same things

they had a bad experience with.

576

: 00:27:15

You know, I want this relationship

in partnership to go in a way

577

: 00:27:19

that smooth for them and myself as well.

578

: 00:27:20

So I'm packing

and asking these questions really

579

: 00:27:24

helps and then go into more the business,

580

: 00:27:28

what they want as an outcome and so forth,

and even their user personas.

581

: 00:27:33

I see, you know, who are they?

What do they look at?

582

: 00:27:35

What do they look like? Sorry.

583

: 00:27:37

You know,

and then really building on that.

584

: 00:27:39

I see. So that's discovery stage almost.

585

: 00:27:42

So after the work job

I would take it away, unpack it

586

: 00:27:47

I see

what are you doing to give her ideally.

587

: 00:27:51

And then the next stage would be

588

: 00:27:54

to start thinking about concepts and ideas

589

: 00:27:58

based on obviously in this discovery

session that I would ask them

590

: 00:28:02

questions about design,

esthetic styles and benchmark.

591

: 00:28:05

Who do that aspire to? Do they not?

592

: 00:28:07

What is something that is a complete

no no.

593

: 00:28:10

Based off that the next stage

would be presenting style sketch

594

: 00:28:13

as I mentioned earlier, which would be

presenting two style scapes, one route

595

: 00:28:17

going down that way and another one

completely going the opposite way.

596

: 00:28:22

The reason for the bipolar opposite

is to really gauge

597

: 00:28:25

how they perceive

and where we're pushing the boundaries.

598

: 00:28:28

That's really smart. Really smart. Yeah.

599

: 00:28:30

And there might even be

600

: 00:28:31

we like a bit of A and B,

but so there might be a half a medium.

601

: 00:28:34

But it's good that we assessed

that early on before doing so.

602

: 00:28:37

There's no surprises later on.

603

: 00:28:39

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And

604

: 00:28:42

yeah.

605

: 00:28:43

So after

the we aligned on that style scape,

606

: 00:28:45

as I mentioned earlier

on, that it goes into design concepts

607

: 00:28:48

where I go away and create ideas,

ideologies,

608

: 00:28:53

thinking shapes, graphics or whatever

it be

609

: 00:28:56

to present them to design concepts.

610

: 00:28:59

Okay.

611

: 00:28:59

And I do two specifically now,

I used to do

612

: 00:29:03

a lot more in the past

five to much choice is too confusing.

613

: 00:29:07

Confused mind doesn't buy. Yeah.

614

: 00:29:09

And by doing the earlier digging earlier

615

: 00:29:12

in the process helps us

616

: 00:29:16

get out and meet present

these two concepts got it

617

: 00:29:19

quite in line with what they perceive

and where the benchmark.

618

: 00:29:23

Makes sense. Industry is.

619

: 00:29:25

And then I'll present this to you Brian.

620

: 00:29:27

Well two concepts to them and they will

621

: 00:29:31

hopefully in the ideal world say back

we love number one.

622

: 00:29:34

There's no changes

but it's not always the case.

623

: 00:29:37

And of course, of course not the process.

624

: 00:29:40

And we will then have a feedback

625

: 00:29:43

on that conversation

and where it is and where it's going.

626

: 00:29:46

And we will then I'll take

let's say they like a bit of concept one

627

: 00:29:51

with a mix of concept

628

: 00:29:52

to go back for feedback, revised

and presented again until the point

629

: 00:29:56

where we find tune and finalize it

and then it will be delivery.

630

: 00:30:01

Pretty much that's kind of the steps

in how I do the process of the design.

631

: 00:30:05

And just to give everybody an idea,

632

: 00:30:07

how long does it

typically take to go through all this.

633

: 00:30:09

You know

634

: 00:30:09

are we looking at let's say two months,

three months, half a year or one month.

635

: 00:30:13

What does it typically look like?

636

: 00:30:15

Just on an average. Of course.

637

: 00:30:17

So I'll give you an example of a project

that I'm commonly working on right now.

638

: 00:30:22

It's a business called Cake Pallet,

actually based in Leicester.

639

: 00:30:26

Okay.

640

: 00:30:28

And from

start to finish it's still ongoing,

641

: 00:30:32

but it's probably taken,

I would say two months.

642

: 00:30:37

Okay. You know, sometimes three.

643

: 00:30:38

But then that's not consistently

two months.

644

: 00:30:42

There's gaps in between. Of course. Yeah.

645

: 00:30:44

But give or take

it can take about one two months.

646

: 00:30:47

Three months.

647

: 00:30:48

It can even be shorter as well

648

: 00:30:49

depending on the scope of the work

and what's needed.

649

: 00:30:52

And how much are we doing?

650

: 00:30:53

Like, are we doing the whole discovery

651

: 00:30:55

or how many parts of the process

are we doing?

652

: 00:30:59

I see.

653

: 00:31:00

But that, you know, gives everybody,

654

: 00:31:02

I think, a good sort of idea

what to expect because, you know, if,

655

: 00:31:05

if somebody like, oh,

I need a logo for tomorrow,

656

: 00:31:08

that's not the right approach, is it? So

657

: 00:31:12

who am I to say it's not.

658

: 00:31:13

A lot about.

659

: 00:31:13

I don't really design

logos for clients now.

660

: 00:31:17

Just logos because yeah, I realize

661

: 00:31:20

it doesn't benefit them really

662

: 00:31:23

for me, because in the sense that logo is

663

: 00:31:27

just a logo without substance, is that

what do you do with it?

664

: 00:31:30

Yeah.

665

: 00:31:30

And so I've stopped doing that

a long time ago.

666

: 00:31:33

Very good.

667

: 00:31:34

Not in any bad way.

There are companies are.

668

: 00:31:36

Of course, answers. You do that

and that's completely fine.

669

: 00:31:38

Yeah, but it's I. It doesn't.

670

: 00:31:41

Like I said earlier, design with purpose

that I feel about really injecting

671

: 00:31:46

meaning in what I do to help my clients.

672

: 00:31:49

Is something bigger

a bigger problem or challenge they have?

673

: 00:31:53

Yeah.

674

: 00:31:54

So yeah, that's.

675

: 00:31:56

But the whole process of, of you,

you know, asking them these questions,

676

: 00:31:59

it sounds like it becomes like

an organic part of what they actually are

677

: 00:32:03

as a, as a business, what they represent,

you know, and,

678

: 00:32:06

it sounds like, you know, you,

679

: 00:32:08

you spend a lot of time

like you plan twice and you execute once,

680

: 00:32:11

so you don't have to sort of go back

and redraw and, and restart from scratch.

681

: 00:32:16

So it,

682

: 00:32:16

it secures you as well because you know,

you're protecting your time in a nutshell.

683

: 00:32:21

So it's not just the outcome itself

that's better,

684

: 00:32:24

but you also only spend time once

and you do it first time.

685

: 00:32:28

Right. Yeah.

686

: 00:32:28

And I think when I'm doing this as

well, like the the clients are important.

687

: 00:32:32

Like the clients that trusting me

to invest in their business through me,

688

: 00:32:36

I, I value that a lot.

689

: 00:32:38

Meaning. So I want to be respectful

of their time. Yeah.

690

: 00:32:41

So having these processes and systems

in what I do in how I approach.

691

: 00:32:45

I want to make sure I'm saving them time

because time is money, right?

692

: 00:32:49

They are required to do other things.

693

: 00:32:51

So if I have processes

that make their life easier.

694

: 00:32:56

That's value I think.

695

: 00:32:58

Of course, of course.

696

: 00:32:59

And I think this day of age, everybody's

697

: 00:33:03

running around, you know, with workload

just through the roof.

698

: 00:33:06

You know, we're all trying to optimize

for certain things cut to cut down

699

: 00:33:11

the time we spend on certain things,

especially in the business.

700

: 00:33:14

So having that reliable, robust framework

that you follow.

701

: 00:33:19

Yeah, I think it's a win

win for both sides, isn't it?

702

: 00:33:21

Definitely.

703

: 00:33:22

And it does change,

as you know, as time goes.

704

: 00:33:24

Things adapted, tweaked depending on you

know, I'm trying to constantly improve it.

705

: 00:33:30

Yeah.

706

: 00:33:30

To make it more efficient

and working better.

707

: 00:33:33

Okay.

708

: 00:33:33

And talking on that point, just to add,

this is where I utilize

709

: 00:33:37

AI to help me in that efficiency

of doing part of my process.

710

: 00:33:41

So got it.

711

: 00:33:41

As I mentioned to you off camera earlier,

that I'm a dyslexic colorblind

712

: 00:33:45

graphic designer,

and I think that's quite rare.

713

: 00:33:48

And this.

714

: 00:33:49

Is not this scripted, guys.

715

: 00:33:50

It's not this scripted.

716

: 00:33:52

And I'm kind of owning that, you know,

whereas before I was very ashamed

717

: 00:33:56

and embarrassed about being dyslexic

because I saw it as a weakness.

718

: 00:33:59

But for many years now,

I see it as a superpower

719

: 00:34:02

because it allows me to, I don't know,

visually, I see things differently.

720

: 00:34:07

And being colorblind.

721

: 00:34:08

Yeah, that's another one.

722

: 00:34:10

But I see contrast.

723

: 00:34:11

What a mix, what. A contrast.

724

: 00:34:13

So I would put combinations and things

together which might not be the obvious.

725

: 00:34:18

You know like I'm wearing a blue jumper

right now. Right.

726

: 00:34:20

I was joking

727

: 00:34:23

but I'll see a contrast.

728

: 00:34:24

And I would put combinations together

with some surprisingly does work okay.

729

: 00:34:29

You know

I think that alternative perspective

730

: 00:34:33

is so valuable as well

because you only know what you know.

731

: 00:34:37

You don't know what you don't know

any new person in your circle or,

732

: 00:34:41

you know, an advisor of,

you know, of your caliber, you know,

733

: 00:34:44

you know,

734

: 00:34:45

they bring such a different perspective

to everything,

735

: 00:34:47

especially when your brain works

differently.

736

: 00:34:50

Yeah, I think it's gold, isn't it?

737

: 00:34:52

Absolutely.

738

: 00:34:53

And this is where, as I mentioned

with the AI.

739

: 00:34:55

So I use

AI to help with copywriting sometimes.

740

: 00:34:59

So how one of the things

like I mentioned with the dyslexia

741

: 00:35:03

is I've always struggled with words

and trying to articulate,

742

: 00:35:07

I know what I want to say and I help

AI help me leverage my explanation.

743

: 00:35:12

I can chuck it in. Okay. Very

744

: 00:35:15

unpolished and just raw.

745

: 00:35:17

Yep. And it'll break it down into summary,

which helps me define.

746

: 00:35:20

And so I use this process quite a lot.

747

: 00:35:23

Okay. My work. Wow.

748

: 00:35:25

Not even just

for the copyright side of things,

749

: 00:35:28

but even like benchmarking clients,

clients looking at who the benchmarks are.

750

: 00:35:33

User personas.

751

: 00:35:34

Okay, okay.

752

: 00:35:37

Yeah.

753

: 00:35:38

Do you, do you do it in writing

754

: 00:35:40

or would you actually speak

with one of those AI agents?

755

: 00:35:44

I've not really spoken with it.

756

: 00:35:46

I would use imagery. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

757

: 00:35:48

You know, things of my drawings

or graphics or things I found

758

: 00:35:51

inspiration from, based of

759

: 00:35:54

the idea, the reset side of thing.

760

: 00:35:56

I'll plug in prompts imagery. Yep.

761

: 00:36:00

And then kind of just put it in there.

762

: 00:36:02

But then it will be a constant

conversation with like back and forth.

763

: 00:36:05

And yeah,

there might be nuggets of something.

764

: 00:36:07

So I will take that aside.

765

: 00:36:09

And but then what I've found when you go

into this rabbit hole sometimes.

766

: 00:36:13

Oh, it opens up things that I hadn't

thought about initially.

767

: 00:36:16

So I think it's beautiful

because it's getting me to

768

: 00:36:19

now think about something different

from what I thought I wanted to take it.

769

: 00:36:23

Yeah.

770

: 00:36:24

And that's the beautiful thing of the

the creation part of.

771

: 00:36:28

Doesn't always happen the way,

but I think that's part of the process of

772

: 00:36:32

creativity is that

773

: 00:36:35

it's being open and

774

: 00:36:39

vulnerable to think like,

where is it going to go,

775

: 00:36:41

you know, not having a direction,

but then open to kind of

776

: 00:36:45

going off path sometimes

because you unpack some other things that.

777

: 00:36:49

That's that's so powerful

because you are constantly in charge

778

: 00:36:53

of the whole situation,

but you discover new ways of potentially

779

: 00:36:57

approaching certain thoughts or concepts.

780

: 00:36:58

So you're basically using it

as an extension of your own sort of,

781

: 00:37:02

you know, skill set, you know,

and obviously saving time, I bet,

782

: 00:37:06

because if you wanted to, you know,

draw everything by hand every single time,

783

: 00:37:10

you know, all the time,

784

: 00:37:12

you know, sometimes

just mixing the two things together,

785

: 00:37:14

you know, through AI,

it just saves so much time

786

: 00:37:16

just to see what

that would look like even.

787

: 00:37:19

Yeah, I don't

I guess I don't really use AI so much

788

: 00:37:21

for the process of the actual design,

while I use it more behind the scenes.

789

: 00:37:26

Yeah. The ideology and the thinking.

790

: 00:37:31

But yeah, I don't.

791

: 00:37:32

Yeah.

792

: 00:37:33

When it comes to the idea, it's

more like seeing what the graphics or

793

: 00:37:37

online graphics.

794

: 00:37:37

Yeah.

795

: 00:37:38

And then kind of

merging the two together.

796

: 00:37:41

What do you think in terms of obviously

there's two camps now like you know

797

: 00:37:45

everybody like okay your eye UI,

you are either

798

: 00:37:49

embracing the AI you're full

799

: 00:37:51

in, you know you're all in, you know just

you know full you know, all guns blazing,

800

: 00:37:55

you know, nano banana and all these kind

of, you know, latest tech.

801

: 00:37:59

And then no, I'm actually going to be

embracing the human side of it, you know,

802

: 00:38:03

and there's I think

803

: 00:38:04

beauty in both approaches

because you can see the different results.

804

: 00:38:07

And, you know, it is polarized in one way.

805

: 00:38:10

But then I like seeing the results

from from both camps.

806

: 00:38:13

I think it just depends on what mood

I'm in, maybe.

807

: 00:38:16

But when it comes

to the functional side of it.

808

: 00:38:20

What would you say about that?

Where is it all going?

809

: 00:38:22

Like the AI stuff on its own,

it can't be as good, can it?

810

: 00:38:27

So you have to

sort of like be you in the process.

811

: 00:38:30

I, I look at it

and yang okay, one or the other.

812

: 00:38:33

Like I think they both coexist.

813

: 00:38:35

I see and I think AI just helped

814

: 00:38:38

make things

more efficient, quicker, faster.

815

: 00:38:42

Meaning it allows design

thinking and us to create as creators.

816

: 00:38:47

Yep, more saves us time to do

817

: 00:38:50

more of that

because the machine can do things faster.

818

: 00:38:54

Like look at Adobe Photoshop,

all of these AI tools right now,

819

: 00:38:57

you know, airbrushing something out

in Photoshop, say, ten years ago.

820

: 00:39:01

I'll be there, like with the pen tool

and Magic one for ages,

821

: 00:39:05

whereas now it's a button.

822

: 00:39:06

So if you're saving that time,

I think it's fantastic.

823

: 00:39:09

Of course.

824

: 00:39:10

And I heard somebody say this

and I can't remember who it was, but

825

: 00:39:15

for people who are scared of it

826

: 00:39:16

or reluctant of AI, is that it's not AI

that's taking over your jobs.

827

: 00:39:22

It's people that are not using. 100%.

828

: 00:39:25

Yeah.

829

: 00:39:26

No, we even the camp, we against it

over with it and we're embracing it.

830

: 00:39:30

Yeah.

831

: 00:39:30

And I think the ones

who probably don't embrace

832

: 00:39:33

it will pretty soon fall back

and then have to catch up.

833

: 00:39:38

Yeah. So I don't think it's taking over.

834

: 00:39:40

I think it's just another tool that I can

utilize.

835

: 00:39:43

Yeah.

836

: 00:39:44

But yeah, I think

but we still need the human side of it.

837

: 00:39:47

And what I mean by

the human side is like talking to clients.

838

: 00:39:52

You and I, sitting here speaking,

there's a human connection happening,

839

: 00:39:56

and there's still tech

being used for AI or whatever.

840

: 00:39:59

But here sitting,

I think there's that marry as well,

841

: 00:40:02

where we interject the two together.

842

: 00:40:05

This is such a great perspective.

843

: 00:40:07

I, I do share a lot in when it comes

to, you know, this approach

844

: 00:40:11

because I've always found it,

you know, as soon as I saw

845

: 00:40:14

ChatGPT, I'm like, okay, this is great,

this is brilliant.

846

: 00:40:17

But it's so easy to fall in that

847

: 00:40:20

sort of echo chamber

because it's constantly praising you.

848

: 00:40:24

So it's it's not really productive, is it?

849

: 00:40:26

Because what a great idea.

850

: 00:40:27

You know, it constantly says that I'm

like, okay, let's just pause on that one.

851

: 00:40:31

Yeah, exactly.

852

: 00:40:33

So that's exactly what I do.

853

: 00:40:34

So like, you know, tell me what is wrong

with my concept, with my thinking, etc.

854

: 00:40:38

I even went to the lengths of,

I've done like a personality test

855

: 00:40:42

with Jordan Peterson Academy, and I've

uploaded results of that and I'm like,

856

: 00:40:47

okay, look at this, analyze this and align

this with my business profile.

857

: 00:40:51

What I'm trying to do with my offer,

what sort of strengths of my personality

858

: 00:40:55

can I leverage. Right.

859

: 00:40:56

So it's also the power of you

having an idea of a question to ask it.

860

: 00:41:01

Because if you're not asking a strong

question, you're not going to get a strong

861

: 00:41:04

sort of result of that.

862

: 00:41:07

Is the question.

863

: 00:41:08

Yeah, 100%.

864

: 00:41:09

So I, I leveraged it from the start

865

: 00:41:11

when building my offer and,

and the, the whole ecosystem.

866

: 00:41:15

Oh some of the things that yeah, it

the things that it pointed out,

867

: 00:41:19

I, I would never think about

I think I can guarantee you

868

: 00:41:21

I could be sitting there for a year

and I would not think about that.

869

: 00:41:24

So do you find something switched

by understanding that knowing that.

870

: 00:41:29

So you almost I don't know. Yeah.

871

: 00:41:31

The importance of that question.

Yeah. Yeah.

872

: 00:41:34

So I, I layered it in a way

that, you know, the, the master prompt

873

: 00:41:39

that's sitting in the background of the,

the, your profile when you register

874

: 00:41:42

and all that.

875

: 00:41:43

That's, that's one thing that's important.

876

: 00:41:45

That's where I would say to to it

like just don't be so like,

877

: 00:41:50

you know, don't praise me. Right.

878

: 00:41:51

You know, challenge my concept, challenge

my ideas, you know, be analytic

879

: 00:41:55

rather than just,

you know, warm and fuzzy and all that.

880

: 00:41:59

So that's what I state that clearly.

881

: 00:42:01

You still have to repeat it in the prompt

sometimes because it still tends

882

: 00:42:05

to, you know, go that direction

unfortunately.

883

: 00:42:08

So you you have to keep check on that one.

884

: 00:42:11

So that was like

the first layer of securing like, okay, I,

885

: 00:42:14

I don't want to hear the positive feedback

all the time because it's pointless.

886

: 00:42:18

It's not constructive

criticism is exactly.

887

: 00:42:21

And it's very different

to what actual people would say.

888

: 00:42:24

So that's the that's the problem.

889

: 00:42:25

And what you need is the feedback

from the actual people who I either

890

: 00:42:29

your prospects, clients, you know,

891

: 00:42:31

maybe past clients that you've sometimes

worked with, you know, like in the past,

892

: 00:42:34

you need to have that reliable like,

893

: 00:42:38

let's say real life, you know, feedback.

894

: 00:42:40

Where is this?

895

: 00:42:41

It's just, you know, virtual blob of

information doesn't necessarily validated.

896

: 00:42:45

No, definitely.

897

: 00:42:46

Funny

you say that because it reminds me of like

898

: 00:42:50

one of the things I do as an aftercare.

899

: 00:42:51

After finishing a project with a client,

900

: 00:42:54

I would ask for them to say a few words

based on some questions.

901

: 00:42:57

You know, like a testimonial.

They say. Got it?

902

: 00:43:00

Because I think is valuable for me

903

: 00:43:02

to kind of understand

how the process went for them.

904

: 00:43:06

Yeah. You know, what was the project?

905

: 00:43:08

What was the challenges?

906

: 00:43:09

How did that help solve that problem?

907

: 00:43:12

Because I learn things about

908

: 00:43:16

me in that

process, and I want them to be honest.

909

: 00:43:19

And I say, look, this is only to me.

910

: 00:43:21

If it's positive, it will be published.

911

: 00:43:23

If it's not, well, I'm joking,

it will always be published.

912

: 00:43:26

Like, I think it's important for me

because I use it as a tool

913

: 00:43:29

that I'm getting honest from

somebody I've worked with.

914

: 00:43:33

This is very valuable 100%.

915

: 00:43:35

Yeah.

916

: 00:43:35

Where can I tweak and improve on things

that they found challenging

917

: 00:43:39

or that didn't quite go in line?

918

: 00:43:41

You know, and because I want to be better.

919

: 00:43:44

Yeah.

920

: 00:43:44

Every day or at least move the needle.

921

: 00:43:47

On that point.

922

: 00:43:48

It also helps whoever would be reading

these reviews to also establish

923

: 00:43:53

before they even approach you,

they might be going through,

924

: 00:43:55

okay, I've got this guy,

I've got this guy, right?

925

: 00:43:57

And they just go through the reviews

like this, the case studies,

926

: 00:44:01

whatever they would be reading about,

and it just shows your personality.

927

: 00:44:05

Maybe you are more on the warm side,

928

: 00:44:06

maybe you are more on the human side and

that other person is a bit more robotic,

929

: 00:44:10

you know, okay, maybe systems are okay

as well, but then, you know, they are not,

930

: 00:44:14

as you know, let's say, you know,

relatable or whatever it happens to be.

931

: 00:44:18

So it's just harder to connect with them.

932

: 00:44:20

So you're winning automatically.

933

: 00:44:22

And that's the kind of client

you want aligned with you.

934

: 00:44:24

Yeah.

935

: 00:44:25

Again, coming back to that kickoff call

because that assessment

936

: 00:44:28

assessment to see where a good fit

you know I'll be going not.

937

: 00:44:32

Yeah. Yeah.

938

: 00:44:32

And sometimes let's be honest

you know you jump on a call with somebody

939

: 00:44:36

and you instantly know

that I can't work with that person.

940

: 00:44:38

You don't know why,

but it is a thing, isn't it?

941

: 00:44:41

Yeah. No it is.

942

: 00:44:41

And and I'm. And I'm quite.

943

: 00:44:44

Yeah, it does happen.

944

: 00:44:45

And sometimes I'm like, okay, look,

945

: 00:44:48

I don't know if I want to work on this

project and not in any bad way to them.

946

: 00:44:51

It's just that we are disconnected,

947

: 00:44:53

misaligned in that thing or the process

or what we're trying to do.

948

: 00:44:57

Yeah,

949

: 00:44:58

but I would always be helpful

950

: 00:45:00

if it's something that, you know,

I don't choose to want to buy,

951

: 00:45:04

take and help doing,

I want to still recommend them.

952

: 00:45:07

Should I know anyone

that am I able to help them?

953

: 00:45:09

I would always happily.

Okay, I see, I see.

954

: 00:45:11

I think it's important that you know,

955

: 00:45:13

just because it's

not for me or them or vice versa.

956

: 00:45:16

If I can still be of help or service

in some shape or form a recommendation.

957

: 00:45:20

Yeah, I will do that. Got it.

958

: 00:45:22

Okay.

959

: 00:45:23

And I would love to dive in

a little deeper into the the tech behind

960

: 00:45:27

your business.

961

: 00:45:27

You mentioned the

the documents signing, sort of solution.

962

: 00:45:31

You know,

963

: 00:45:31

I'm assuming

964

: 00:45:32

that you were working on the Adobe package

in terms of the design itself.

965

: 00:45:35

So that would be obviously,

you know, one big sort of,

966

: 00:45:41

chunky part of the

967

: 00:45:42

business that, you know, all you're, like,

processes would sit on, I'm assuming.

968

: 00:45:47

Yeah. Well, that would be the greatest.

969

: 00:45:48

Cloud suite is pretty much everything.

970

: 00:45:50

Without that,

I think I could do my job. Got it.

971

: 00:45:53

Or I could find the alternative,

which is affinity, which is,

972

: 00:45:56

you know, part of Canva. Yeah.

973

: 00:45:59

But when you've been using Adobe for

974

: 00:46:01

ten plus years,

kind of know your tools, it's.

975

: 00:46:04

Yeah, it's so hard to move away.

976

: 00:46:06

Move away.

It's not necessarily to move away.

977

: 00:46:09

It's like, yes, if the alternatives

provide something, that's it.

978

: 00:46:13

But Adobe have always been there. Yeah.

979

: 00:46:15

You know the programs I typically use a

Adobe Illustrator, InDesign and Photoshop.

980

: 00:46:20

Yeah. They're the core that I do.

981

: 00:46:23

I don't do motion.

982

: 00:46:24

I want to try and learn a bit of that

just for myself.

983

: 00:46:28

Yeah, but yeah, they're the three

that I use and Acrobat and.

984

: 00:46:34

I. See just the document.

985

: 00:46:35

So Acrobat I use for the contracts

that I create for clients to sign.

986

: 00:46:41

And then I get notification.

987

: 00:46:43

Okay.

988

: 00:46:44

But that can enhance the other,

you know, sort of other areas

989

: 00:46:48

of the business as well,

because you're not just,

990

: 00:46:50

you know, using it for one purpose.

991

: 00:46:52

It's like an ecosystem of things,

isn't it?

992

: 00:46:54

Is there anything else useful

that you might be leveraging?

993

: 00:46:57

I don't know when it comes to the,

994

: 00:46:59

let's say, managing the contact details

for your clients and suppliers.

995

: 00:47:03

You know, anything like,

I don't know, CRM of some sort.

996

: 00:47:06

Maybe your database of of of people

that you would have as your clients.

997

: 00:47:11

Do you have anything

998

: 00:47:11

like one central point, you know, that,

you know, holds everything like that?

999

: 00:47:15

I would say

typically I use Google Drive okay.

: 1000

00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:23,360

Which is great, where I have

all the information, forms, documents,

: 1001

00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:24,600

even folders.

: 1002

00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,880

After creating all the design files

which I can share with them.

: 1003

00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,800

So cloud storage

because it's accessible for from anywhere.

: 1004

00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:33,600

Really. Yeah.

: 1005

00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,560

And I think the cloud storage

really helpful, especially when I'm doing

: 1006

00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,480

delivery of the deliverable

: 1007

00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,240

final files to the client,

I'll share that folder with them okay.

: 1008

00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,480

Purely because in the pre cloud

: 1009

00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,360

it was that I would send

and there would always be amendments

: 1010

00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,840

or changes back and forth having to reason

far back and forth with the.

: 1011

00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,880

Night v1 final V1 final final.

: 1012

00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,600

For my own process I do v1 v2 v.

: 1013

00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,200

I never go to the client, but it's just

so I keep track of the amount of changes.

: 1014

00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:10,960

Yeah, but then knowing to send

when when you know it was that stage

: 1015

00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,640

where he would be sending

individual files,

: 1016

00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,440

it was so easy to just send the wrong one

and the client would get annoyed.

: 1017

00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:18,280

Right?

: 1018

00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,520

It's like,

you know, we're seeing the same thing.

: 1019

00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,840

The I, the the storage online is beautiful

because when we share that folder,

: 1020

00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,840

if I need to make the men any part of any,

: 1021

00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,640

project or task that was created,

: 1022

00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,120

it's just easily done, I do it,

they get the update.

: 1023

00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,040

Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic.

: 1024

00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,560

And for brand guidelines.

: 1025

00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,320

So because brand guidelines,

when I create them they evolve over time.

: 1026

00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,480

But yes there might be a version

to unless it's a drastic change.

: 1027

00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,000

Got it. Like then

it would be named differently.

: 1028

00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,640

I see this little tweaks.

: 1029

00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,880

It'll just be updated

and they wouldn't even probably know.

: 1030

00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:56,560

I see, I see and now in terms of the

the structure of the business

: 1031

00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,680

itself, like, you know, you're doing

majority of the things yourself.

: 1032

00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,440

You are the the face of the business.

: 1033

00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,960

You are the actual designer behind

all the work that's being generated.

: 1034

00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,240

But are you supporting yourself

with any like,

: 1035

00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,000

you know, let's say modular,

sort of structure.

: 1036

00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,920

So maybe you have like freelancers

that, you know,

: 1037

00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,760

you would pull in to occasionally help you

if the workload get gets too crazy,

: 1038

00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,920

maybe virtual assistants, you know,

can you maybe share some thoughts on

: 1039

00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:23,000

on these kind of approaches as well,

whether it's useful or problematic?

: 1040

00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,080

Yeah. No. Absolutely.

: 1041

00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,080

So I am pretty much me myself and I

: 1042

00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,160

run, do design,

speak to clients all by myself.

: 1043

00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:33,560

I kind of enjoy that in a way.

: 1044

00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,440

But that's where I am, and that's.

How I know I have that song in my mind.

: 1045

00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:37,280

Oh, by.

: 1046

00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,880

So yeah, that is

me, myself in doing all of these things.

: 1047

00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,840

However, to your point,

having a VA virtual system.

: 1048

00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:50,080

Yes, I do bring in certain skilled people

depending on the project needed.

: 1049

00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,120

I use illustrators for offers.

: 1050

00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:54,880

Copywriters at times.

: 1051

00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,480

Yeah.

: 1052

00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,440

And I bring them in on a project

depending on what's needed.

: 1053

00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,720

You know,

I don't have them there all the time.

: 1054

00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:06,680

Just because if the work's not there to

bring them in, it's only work dependent.

: 1055

00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:07,680

Of course, you know.

: 1056

00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:13,000

And yeah, so I utilize in Australia

photographers and so forth like that.

: 1057

00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:13,480

That's good.

: 1058

00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,400

It it allows you to move faster as well

because the, the company isn't as huge.

: 1059

00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,840

You don't have the overheads of,

you know, people constantly being employed

: 1060

00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,000

because you don't have the, you know,

the need for them every single day.

: 1061

00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,080

Right?

So that makes total sense. Of course.

: 1062

00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,080

But I think what's also important as well,

: 1063

00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,440

even motion

art is a motion designers as well.

: 1064

00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,040

I sometimes use

because I can't do those things.

: 1065

00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,240

I can illustrate it very little bit,

but I'm not an illustrator,

: 1066

00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,800

so I want to bring in the best person

who can do that for the job,

: 1067

00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,120

to get the best out of it.

: 1068

00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,000

Again,

same emotion or copyright or photography?

: 1069

00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:54,800

Yeah, I have an esthetic I, I art, direct

and do everything how it should be.

: 1070

00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,800

I want to get the key people

who are experts at that.

: 1071

00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,120

Yeah.

: 1072

00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,040

So you can give it justice and deliver the

the best.

: 1073

00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,880

Exactly.

And I think this is where it's important.

: 1074

00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,200

Like this is what agencies have.

: 1075

00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,440

They have the team of people

who specialize in specific things.

: 1076

00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,160

Of course you package it

to give it to the client. Yeah.

: 1077

00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,960

And I similarly do that in a freelance

smaller scale, not from an agency, but

: 1078

00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,360

you still get the best of what you know,

: 1079

00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,440

whether it's certain parts of design

or creative service.

: 1080

00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,440

I argued this is better, isn't it, because

you know, you're using what's what.

: 1081

00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,360

You are the best sort of in.

: 1082

00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,360

Then you have another person

who is also the best in their field,

: 1083

00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:31,880

and you just merge the two together.

: 1084

00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,200

So that's a good powerful fusion.

: 1085

00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:34,880

Yeah, yeah.

: 1086

00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,720

And sometimes in that process,

what I like when I work with illustrators

: 1087

00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:45,440

especially, is that they'll challenge me

with any creative expert in that field, is

: 1088

00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,800

that I have the idea of the art direction

because they know this.

: 1089

00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:50,680

Prof.

: 1090

00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,080

They may question or we collaborate

together to find something

: 1091

00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,400

and that I love, because I think

that is invaluable, because

: 1092

00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,960

that is the process of creativity

and creation.

: 1093

00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,360

Yeah. And then,

you know, presenting your clients.

: 1094

00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:06,840

I think that's a beautiful thing.

: 1095

00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,960

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

: 1096

00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,720

All right, then, a couple of questions,

because I've got a small community

: 1097

00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:17,880

that I'm building and I allow the members

to, you know, ask a couple of questions

: 1098

00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,080

to the, you know, to the business owners

who are on the show.

: 1099

00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,360

One question that I've seen asked

: 1100

00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,400

at least three times

already is on the rejection element.

: 1101

00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:32,000

So when you were building your business,

you know, what sort of part did that play?

: 1102

00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:33,520

Did it affect you heavily?

: 1103

00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,320

Or you know, where you, like, unbothered?

: 1104

00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,440

You know, I just do my own thing

and I'm not going to pay much attention

: 1105

00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,600

to the,

you know, to the nose that I'm getting.

: 1106

00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,440

What was that that like.

: 1107

00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,600

So are you asking rejections in time

in terms of not getting the work for you?

: 1108

00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:47,800

I'll give a quote.

: 1109

00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,480

And you're asking specifically

in the earlier stages.

: 1110

00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,720

Yes, yes, yes.

So when you were building the, the,

: 1111

00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:55,320

the whole company,

you know, to what it is now.

: 1112

00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,440

So in the earlier stages,

rejection was like a knife.

: 1113

00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,440

You always wanted to win.

: 1114

00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,640

Always wanting to do the work. You know.

: 1115

00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,880

So that was very many,

many years ago obviously.

: 1116

00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:10,600

Because you were hungry.

: 1117

00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,400

You're passionate,

you want to get into it you know.

: 1118

00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,640

So and you're selling you right. Yeah.

Of course.

: 1119

00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,200

And it's almost like a personal attack,

: 1120

00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,320

which I've come to

realize is not in any shape or form.

: 1121

00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,960

Yeah, but younger me saw it like that.

: 1122

00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,040

It was almost like the relationship.

: 1123

00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:26,640

You're breaking up with me.

: 1124

00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,760

I love it, but.

: 1125

00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,440

Obviously, as I've grown over the years.

: 1126

00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,440

No, I, I look at a rejection,

: 1127

00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,160

I don't really

: 1128

00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:41,840

it's neither good nor bad.

: 1129

00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,520

It's just okay, it happens.

: 1130

00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,000

And I'm not completely fine

with that. Okay.

: 1131

00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,520

And I'm completely okay if I don't

get to work or if I get to work.

: 1132

00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:55,480

You know, one of the things, I never try

and convince a client to use me.

: 1133

00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:56,520

Okay.

: 1134

00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,120

And the reason for this

is because I would demonstrate

: 1135

00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,240

on the core kickoff Covid,

have a conversation about Alex Blaine.

: 1136

00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:05,240

What I do, my process is.

: 1137

00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,960

And demonstrate value

and how I've helped previous client

: 1138

00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,200

see what their goals were

and if this aligns with you.

: 1139

00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:13,600

Brilliant.

: 1140

00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,160

I never convince them. Okay.

: 1141

00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,280

And the reason why I do not convince them

: 1142

00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,680

is because I want them

to make that decision.

: 1143

00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:22,920

And provided I'm done

: 1144

00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:27,760

my job good in terms of expressing,

explaining and value. Yep.

: 1145

00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:28,920

They can see that.

: 1146

00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,800

And if they have any questions

I'm still follow up with questions

: 1147

00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,840

to be helpful to say,

oh, is there anything of concerns.

: 1148

00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:40,280

And so I would never say, you know, I'm

cheaper or I, you know, better than this

: 1149

00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,320

or what's the quote,

you know, the budget or the price thing.

: 1150

00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,720

I don't do, you know.

: 1151

00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:48,480

I learned this from obviously Crystal.

: 1152

00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:48,720

Right.

: 1153

00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:52,640

The famous when the client asked you

why do you charge so much?

: 1154

00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:53,200

Oh, yes.

: 1155

00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:54,480

Never justify it.

: 1156

00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,200

Yeah,

and I don't. It's a. Classic, isn't it?

: 1157

00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,800

I it's what my clients pay me.

: 1158

00:54:58,800 --> 00:54:59,520

Yeah. You know.

: 1159

00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,640

Yeah. And that's pretty much it.

: 1160

00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:03,680

So that's it.

: 1161

00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:08,840

We were recording a an episode yesterday,

and the gentleman who was a guest,

: 1162

00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,960

he says that, you know, the

the good analogy

: 1163

00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,360

for something like this

is that you get an expert in

: 1164

00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:20,240

they have to tap in one spot

to fix a problem with a hammer.

: 1165

00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,000

Right. And it they charge ten grand. Why?

: 1166

00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,600

Because they've learned for 30 years

and they know exactly where to tap.

: 1167

00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,520

Right. It's it's that thing, isn't it?

: 1168

00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,800

You know, and you need to know your value.

: 1169

00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,720

And see that is the thing.

: 1170

00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:38,640

So when you've got CEOs of companies

owners, right, their time is valuable.

: 1171

00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:42,320

Of course, go through the process of

unpacking, which they probably don't have.

: 1172

00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,480

They would put money to take a problem

off their desk.

: 1173

00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,360

Yeah. Wicker. Yeah.

: 1174

00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,360

Because it buys them time to do things

where they need to focus in.

: 1175

00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:54,960

So if either not some people

see the value in that, some people don't.

: 1176

00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:56,400

And that's okay. Yeah.

: 1177

00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:02,160

You know, and what I want to try and do,

or I hope I do, is help my clients

: 1178

00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,360

see the value in what they're doing,

bringing something to life.

: 1179

00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:05,640

Okay.

: 1180

00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,640

And that gives me the purest joy, right?

: 1181

00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,160

When I've helped client see the potential.

: 1182

00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,480

And I see them grow beyond the design.

: 1183

00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,600

Obviously,

the design is the main byproduct.

: 1184

00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,720

Yes, but it's the excitement

when they see the.

: 1185

00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,720

When I present the concept,

they light up and, you know,

: 1186

00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,760

that is like,

oh, it's like I'm birthing them a baby.

: 1187

00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,080

It's like, and that excites me.

: 1188

00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,080

And then we go through the process

and talk about and delivering

: 1189

00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,240

and just everything,

all these components coming together.

: 1190

00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:40,400

And something that sparked in them

that it just gives me joy.

: 1191

00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,320

And it's it's just like a belief.

Yeah. Wow.

: 1192

00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:44,840

I didn't even think it could be there.

: 1193

00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,720

You're actually radiating sort of passion

right now.

: 1194

00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,720

I can sort of sense it. I can tell it's.

: 1195

00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:51,360

Yeah.

: 1196

00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,360

For me that that is the thing

why I do what I do.

: 1197

00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,720

Design for me, I think is a byproduct.

: 1198

00:56:56,720 --> 00:57:00,480

Yeah, but it's helping people,

whether it be, well,

: 1199

00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,080

in this case, clients and stuff. Yeah.

: 1200

00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,840

To see the best version

of what they can do in their business.

: 1201

00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:10,360

And I'm just giving that little bit,

I think in the biggest realm of.

: 1202

00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,120

Wow, wow. Such a great story.

: 1203

00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:14,160

I love it.

: 1204

00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,440

So the second question from the community

was along the lines of

: 1205

00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,480

how would you approach

measuring the success in what you deliver?

: 1206

00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,840

So if somebody goes

through the process of rebranding

: 1207

00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:30,040

and you deliver the results,

then how can they even approach

: 1208

00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:34,920

that conversation of quantifying,

that it brought them

: 1209

00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,960

some improvement in versus

what it used to look like.

: 1210

00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,520

I would always ask the question

that to the client.

: 1211

00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:42,400

Okay, okay.

: 1212

00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,360

Because I don't know

specifically how it's measured.

: 1213

00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,160

And this is what I would ask the client.

: 1214

00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,160

How would you measure the success?

: 1215

00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:51,160

Oh, okay. What's done?

: 1216

00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,440

So they might, for example, say, well,

I'm doing this brand identity.

: 1217

00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,520

We want to make x amount

or have X amount of revenue, for example,

: 1218

00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,560

or followers

or selling a certain amount of products.

: 1219

00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:04,720

Okay. Right.

: 1220

00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:05,320

I'm like okay.

: 1221

00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,440

So we understanding one part of it.

: 1222

00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,440

What number is that you need to reach?

: 1223

00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,960

I see the analytics and detail of specific

things.

: 1224

00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:14,760

Got it.

: 1225

00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:19,640

And I, I can't really say what value

they will see.

: 1226

00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,440

I would need to ask the question.

: 1227

00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:22,000

True.

: 1228

00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,840

So, yeah, the value is always

what I'd ask the client, you know,

: 1229

00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:27,080

how do they measure it?

: 1230

00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:32,080

You know, but what I what has come

up, the value is that when an image

: 1231

00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,880

or identity system that's worked

in the way it's helped connect

: 1232

00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,560

more people to their businesses.

: 1233

00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,640

I see, so it's communicating something

where they're getting more reach,

: 1234

00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:42,160

more followers and so forth.

: 1235

00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,160

So the bigger question is asking them,

well, how do you measure it?

: 1236

00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,080

What is the thing

you want out of it? Got it.

: 1237

00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,160

Are we by doing this project,

is it going to help move it there?

: 1238

00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,480

I can demonstrate to you what it can do.

: 1239

00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,760

Yep. But then after creating

: 1240

00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:58,720

an identity or project or graphic

: 1241

00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,920

for the client, it's up for the client to

then take it from there.

: 1242

00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,400

I see. Take it forward.

So it's it's almost the aftercare.

: 1243

00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:06,600

It's like, oh here you go.

: 1244

00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,560

Here's a nice new shiny

image for your company.

: 1245

00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:09,960

Yeah.

: 1246

00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,320

But if you don't know what you're doing

with it, that becomes a downfall.

: 1247

00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:15,760

Or it can be the thing that pushes it

so high.

: 1248

00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:16,760

And I've got an impression.

: 1249

00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,800

This is exactly the place

where this question is coming from.

: 1250

00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:24,200

So they might not necessarily know

how to even think about that.

: 1251

00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,640

So what would you typically look for?

: 1252

00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:27,840

Increase metrics. Right.

: 1253

00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,040

As a result of going through

rebranding for example.

: 1254

00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:32,360

Is that correct? Yeah.

: 1255

00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:33,480

Okay. Okay.

: 1256

00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:34,800

So it's not necessarily

: 1257

00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,800

the process of delivering the work

that's going to bring you any results.

: 1258

00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,040

Guys. It's what happens after.

: 1259

00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,560

So you would then have to pay attention

to the metrics analytics

: 1260

00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,760

and just see what changes around that one.

: 1261

00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:46,920

Yes exactly.

: 1262

00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:48,160

So and it's also like

: 1263

00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,120

okay, we've done this creation

because like I said, when I do strategic

: 1264

00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,880

branding or brand designer, let's say it's

not just a decorative thing.

: 1265

00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,000

It's like, what are the things

that the business can do going forward.

: 1266

00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,120

How can you leverage

some of the content on your social?

: 1267

01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:03,520

Yeah. You know, how do you show up?

: 1268

01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,560

What networking event, what other

: 1269

01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,480

parts of the business that needs to move

in this direction with the new identity?

: 1270

01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:15,000

I see there's a visual identity,

but there's a verbal identity

: 1271

01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,160

that's so important.

: 1272

01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,160

The company voice. Yes. Yeah.

: 1273

01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,040

All of our senses is how I look.

: 1274

01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:23,320

This is, in the simplest way.

: 1275

01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:28,640

Where I came to clients is how everything

of our senses is a brand perception.

: 1276

01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,280

What we see, what we smell, what we speak

and how we listen.

: 1277

01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,120

Yep. Simple. Is that so?

: 1278

01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,520

The visual is one part,

but there's all these other senses

: 1279

01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,840

in how people interact with it,

but they need to move into alignment.

: 1280

01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,840

So at the business, what are they

adopting in terms of the behaviors

: 1281

01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:45,680

and how they're putting themselves out?

: 1282

01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,880

Communicating, networking,

connecting distance processes

: 1283

01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,480

along with the visual thing

that's now new. Got it.

: 1284

01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,360

Because it's bigger.

: 1285

01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:55,000

Yeah.

: 1286

01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,840

So it's looking at you know, basically

you have to take a broader perspective

: 1287

01:00:58,880 --> 01:00:59,920

onto all these things.

: 1288

01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:04,280

And and it's an amalgamation of, of,

of of everything that's being done.

: 1289

01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,080

Wow. That's that's amazing advice.

: 1290

01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:07,400

Thank you so much.

: 1291

01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,240

Where can people find you?

: 1292

01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,680

Let's let's go through that stage now.

: 1293

01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:16,200

The best place to find me

is on my Instagram handle.

: 1294

01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,360

Yep. Rack dot I am.

: 1295

01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,880

And LinkedIn is to platforms.

: 1296

01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:24,600

So yeah.

: 1297

01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,720

But there's Instagram is the best place

pretty much

: 1298

01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,000

I am. Okay.

: 1299

01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,800

We'll put it in the description

of the episode obviously.

: 1300

01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,560

Do you wish to share any final thoughts.

: 1301

01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,560

Maybe the importance of design

anything around that one.

: 1302

01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,480

Just to sort of summarize the,

the conversation?

: 1303

01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:48,800

I think the biggest thing what I was is

the mighty new micro is about branding.

: 1304

01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:53,360

It's, I think, not what you say about your

business to be true, what others say or

: 1305

01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,120

gut feeling.

: 1306

01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:57,840

So I think it's important.

: 1307

01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,320

So yeah, this idea of that.

: 1308

01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,640

Oh, I want something for my business.

This is what I want.

: 1309

01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,600

You've got to put yourself in the clients

or their clients.

: 1310

01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:06,080

Yeah.

: 1311

01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,600

What is it

not they want is what do they need?

: 1312

01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:13,560

So you act with the the

the thinking of what the end user.

: 1313

01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:15,400

Is thinking. That's the biggest thing.

: 1314

01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:20,600

Put yourself in the position

of the customer and what they're thinking.

: 1315

01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,400

Wow. Better deliver for them.

This is so powerful.

: 1316

01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:24,720

Thank you so much. Thank you.

: 1317

01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:25,840

It was a great episode.

: 1318

01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,840

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.